Ref question when snookered on a colour

[acesinc]

The rules say that the striker must verbally declare the colour he is going for when snookered.

I stand corrected. Snookerdad is exactly correct. The specific Rule copied and pasted is Section 3., Rule 10.:

Penalties are:
...
(d) seven points if the striker:
...
(vi) fails to declare which ball he is on when snookered or when requested to do so by the referee
...


Well done, SnookerDad!

[jonny66]

That doesn't say anything about a verbal declaration, it just say's declaration. I'm sure there was a thread about this not long ago, might as well do it again

[Shockerz]

That doesn't say anything about a verbal declaration, it just say's declaration. I'm sure there was a thread about this not long ago, might as well do it again

I think the conclusion then was that it is the players responsibility to ensure the referee is in no doubt as to the ball he/she has nominated, just saying it etc was not enough if the referee hadn't heard them.

[DeanH]

I think the conclusion then was that it is the players responsibility to ensure the referee is in no doubt as to the ball he/she has nominated, just saying it etc was not enough if the referee hadn't heard them.

hence refs repeat the declaration

[Shockerz]

hence refs repeat the declaration

I guess if the ref doesn't repeat it, it should be taken that it hasn't been heard...

[snookerdad]

Declare means say. Nominate means indicate to the satisfaction of the referee.

You have to nominate a free ball but you don't have to declare unless the referee asks or unless you are snookered (which may be a bit silly on a free ball).

But, because many players believe you have to declare a free ball, I always advise my players to avoid disagreements by declaring free balls.

Tim Dunkley (World Snooker coach)

[Londonlad147]

This is one of a few situations where the referee will request the player to "declare" their selected ball, when every colour is snookered after a red is potted. Other can be in a touching ball situation.
Don't think I have seen this in a pro game

Bit of a moot point on this one Dean. The latest version of the rules have changed what is said at 3/10(d)(vi): "fails to declare which ball he is on when snookered or when requested to do so by the referee". To me that puts the onus onto the striker having to declare what ball he is on if he is snookered. If the referee asks him to declare when snookered, then surely he is aiding the striker in avoiding an automatic seven point penalty?

The referee may of course ask if there is any ambiguity in a non-snookered situation, and remember of course, that when we're talking about being snookered here, since the rule italicises it, it has the meaning of the s2 definition, whoch means the striker can't see both extreme edges, not that he is 'totallly' snookered.

[Londonlad147]

This type of case is something that one may consider a rather odd quirk in the Rules of Snooker. The thing about it is that the striker is never, ever REQUIRED to nominate a ball verbally....he can just strike if he wants. If he does, of course he runs the risk of the Referee calling a foul on him whether he hits the ball he intended or not and there would be no recourse for him in such case. There may be times when the Referee requests a nomination.....again, the player does not actually have to verbally answer, but if he does not, then the Referee is absolutely going to call it as a foul no matter how obvious the strike was, if only to teach the striker a lesson that he should best respond to a query from the Ref.

As for the Referee's end of it, he is also never REQUIRED to request a colour nomination by the Rules. On occasion, the Ref will ask for nomination simply as a courtesy to the player essentially saying, "It is not clear to me which ball you are playing at so if you wish to be sure not to foul, it would be a good idea to let me know." The actual wording used by the Referee will be something along the lines of "Please declare." but they manage to get that entire thought conveyed in so few words; very concise.

So if you want to place the onus of declaring a colour verbally on someone, it rightfully belongs on the striker. It is his responsibility that the Referee be clear on the point of which colour he is playing as on, not the other way around.

Sorry but you're wrong.

As mentioned above 3.10(d)(vi) DOES put the onus on the striker to verbally declare if snookered. He must also verbally declare if the referee asks him to.

...fails to declare which ball he is on when snookered or when requested to do so by the referee;

s.3.8(a) also makes clear that the referee MUST ask for a declaration if the cue ball is touching one or more colours after potting a red.

If the cue-ball is touching one or more colours after a Red (or a free ball nominated as a Red) has been potted, the referee shall also ask the striker to DECLARE which colour he is on

[Londonlad147]

cool
do you recall the match/players?
I do think that more often than not players tend to declare their selection more than necessary

There are many instances when the referee asks for a declaration, when there is any degree of ambiguity in which colour the striker is or could be aiming at.

I agree, that players do declare their nomination, when it is totally unnecessary. But declaring when you needn't isn't a problem, and maybe it is better to be safe than sorry.

[Londonlad147]

Just on a side point about having to nominate what ball you are trying to hit, on a free ball I think you have to nominate even if it's bleedin obvious what ball you are going for.

You ALWAYS have to nominate your choice of colour or free ball, BUT that nomination can be done by indication (Pointing with finger, cue, direction of cueing) or by verbal declaration. You do NOT need to verbally declare what ball you're on if you're awarded a free ball, you simply need to nominate to the satisfaction of the referee which can be by indication.

[Londonlad147]

I guess if the ref doesn't repeat it, it should be taken that it hasn't been heard...

Indeed! Referees are advised to repeat the declaration to ensure there is no doubt with either party.I've misheard a declaration before now, repeated it, and the player has then said, "No, I said blue" or whatever.

[richiet]

Section 2.12 b - "If requested by the referee, the striker must declare which ball he is on."

"Declare" would normally mean a verbal declaration, but if a player chose to indicate their chosen colour some other way (e.g. by pointing clearly) I would accept that as a declaration.

and Section 3.10 d (vi) Seven point penalty if the striker fails to declare which ball he is on when snookered or when requested to do so by the referee;

[itsnoteasy]

You ALWAYS have to nominate your choice of colour or free ball, BUT that nomination can be done by indication (Pointing with finger, cue, direction of cueing) or by verbal declaration. You do NOT need to verbally declare what ball you're on if you're awarded a free ball, you simply need to nominate to the satisfaction of the referee which can be by indication.

So is getting down and obviously pointing your cue at a ball enough, or must the indication be done standing up? I'm asking because I saw a lad get called on this in a comp last year and I hadn't heard of this rule, but he had a very obvious blue straight across the table so is the fact he's pointing his cue clearly at it when in the address position not enough?

[Londonlad147]

So is getting down and obviously pointing your cue at a ball enough, or must the indication be done standing up? I'm asking because I saw a lad get called on this in a comp last year and I hadn't heard of this rule, but he had a very obvious blue straight across the table so is the fact he's pointing his cue clearly at it when in the address position not enough?

As I said previously the direction of cueing is normally sufficient indication of the nominated ball. If the ref is uncertain then he should ask for a verbal declaration. Therefore, the indication can be done when you're down on your shot.

I suspect there a lot of referees, particularly older ones, who are probably confused on this rule, and expect a verbal declaration of a free ball when one isn't necessary. It's probably not helped because most players will declare anyway. Unfortunately once a referee reaches a grade, then he maintains that grade without and monitoring as to whether he's keeping up to date with the rules, and gaining the experience necessary to maintain the grade (at least in England). Hopefully that will change.

[itsnoteasy]

As I said previously the direction of cueing is normally sufficient indication of the nominated ball. If the ref is uncertain then he should ask for a verbal declaration. Therefore, the indication can be done when you're down on your shot.

I suspect there a lot of referees, particularly older ones, who are probably confused on this rule, and expect a verbal declaration of a free ball when one isn't necessary. It's probably not helped because most players will declare anyway. Unfortunately once a referee reaches a grade, then he maintains that grade without and monitoring as to whether he's keeping up to date with the rules, and gaining the experience necessary to maintain the grade (at least in England). Hopefully that will change.

Thanks Londonlad, this fella got a foul called on him, there was a bit of a tadoo and they looked it up and still got it wrong lol, they decided he had to say out loud what ball he was going for. They even got the penalty wrong and called a foul four, I think it should have been seven I take it.