Unusual circumstances that could catch out players and referees

[Shockerz]

Only the yellow ball will be respotted in such a scenario. The green, brown etc would never be respotted.

This question has been discussed at length over the years, including the rules committee and the EBSA tutors and examiners, and that's the ultimate interpretation, accepted by all.

(c) If a stroke is made with a ball or balls not correctly spotted, they will be considered to be correctly spotted for subsequent strokes. Any colour incorrectly missing from the table will be spotted:
(i) without penalty when discovered if missing due to previous oversight;
(ii) subject to penalty if the striker played before the referee was able to effect the spotting.

3.7(c) clearly says any that any missing balls will be spotted when discovered, generally without penalty unless the striker has played without allowing sufficient time for the ref to respot a ball. Nowhere do the rules say anything about all potted balls being respotted!

The opening sentence of 3.7(c) indicates that any balls are considered to be correctly spotted for subsequent strokes, so the green, brown etc would be considered to be validly potted, along with the associated reds. The suggestion that the green and brown get spotted and potted again, that's ridiculous.

I also checked this out on Monday when one of the guys I know was involved in his Ref's exam.

The examiner confirmed that the yellow only would come back and potted as the next ball as you said.

I also asked him that if as the black fell someone shouted out, "You didn't re-spot the yellow!" what would happen.

He said that obviously this is almost impossible to happen but obviously I pursued it. He wasn't sure but an interesting situation as then you have the debate as to whether the match has finished which I cannot find in the rules.

[DeanH]

I also asked him that if as the black fell someone shouted out, "You didn't re-spot the yellow!" what would happen.

He said that obviously this is almost impossible to happen but obviously I pursued it. He wasn't sure but an interesting situation as then you have the debate as to whether the match has finished which I cannot find in the rules.

Your scenario of black being potted and frame over, then the omission of (say) the yellow is noticed; then the error would be condoned and no further action taken, even if the two additional points would have a material effect on the game.

[Shockerz]

Your scenario of black being potted and frame over, then the omission of (say) the yellow is noticed; then the error would be condoned and no further action taken, even if the two additional points would have a material effect on the game.

I must admit Dean, that's what I'd go with but it makes you think. If the rules good a few back it should be at the black but then you'd get into, "What if someone notices after the black and the guys have packed their cues up!"

Gotta draw a line somewhere.

[DeanH]

I must admit Dean, that's what I'd go with but it makes you think. If the rules good a few back it should be at the black but then you'd get into, "What if someone notices after the black and the guys have packed their cues up!"

Gotta draw a line somewhere.

LOL, and let's not get into the "well, he has put his cue away so he has conceded!"

:biggrin:

[Londonlad147]

Your scenario of black being potted and frame over, then the omission of (say) the yellow is noticed; then the error would be condoned and no further action taken, even if the two additional points would have a material effect on the game.

We had this discussion over on the FB group recently, and the consensus was that if noticed before all the 'niceties' of end of frame are com pleted, then the yellow would come back up and be the sole ball on the table. The 'frame ends when black is only abll on tabnle and potted or a foul is committed' would be over-ridden in this case.

This also begs the question about what if the missing colour is only discovered once the pink is potted. Would the striker be able to snooker behind the black if he has a free ball?

[DeanH]

Unusual circumstances that could catch out players and referees

brilliant :biggrin:

Maybe I might join FB

[Londonlad147]

Maybe I might join FB

FB is great if you work out how to get your settings right. The FB group for rules and referees is really quite good... but then again I might be biased, because I started it!

[Shockerz]

FB is great if you work out how to get your settings right. The FB group for rules and referees is really quite good... but then again I might be biased, because I started it!

Didn't even know the group was out there!! I've just asked to join, seems like a very good idea.

[Billy]

What would happen if a player failed to nominate a colour (when their choice was in doubt - let's say yellow and black are together in the baulk end and the player is playing a roll-up safety from the black end of the table) and then they miscue when playing the shot?

Would the ref call a default foul of four, or would they be in their right to ask which colour the player had intended to hit and award the appropriate foul?

Also:

The ref is handing the player the extended rest. They both fumble the exchange and the rest drops to the table, hitting a ball in the process. What happens?

[Londonlad147]

What would happen if a player failed to nominate a colour (when their choice was in doubt - let's say yellow and black are together in the baulk end and the player is playing a roll-up safety from the black end of the table) and then they miscue when playing the shot?

Would the ref call a default foul of four, or would they be in their right to ask which colour the player had intended to hit and award the appropriate foul?

Also:

The ref is handing the player the extended rest. They both fumble the exchange and the rest drops to the table, hitting a ball in the process. What happens?

If there is likely to be any ambiguity in nomnination by indication, then the referee should ask for a verbal declaration. If he fails to ask then he cannot call a foul for hitting a 'wrong' ball (compared to what he thought the striker was aiming for). He must give the benefit of the doubt to the striker. But a good referee will always ask for a verbal declaration if he's unsure, particularly if there are two colours close together, and if the striker does not then verbally declare it is a foul penalty seven points regardless of what he hits.

Again a good referee will not handle a rest over the table for the very reason of the possibility of dropping it! It is the striker's responsibility to place and remove any rests.

[DeanH]

What would happen if a player failed to nominate a colour (when their choice was in doubt - let's say yellow and black are together in the baulk end and the player is playing a roll-up safety from the black end of the table) and then they miscue when playing the shot?

Would the ref call a default foul of four, or would they be in their right to ask which colour the player had intended to hit and award the appropriate foul?

Also:

The ref is handing the player the extended rest. They both fumble the exchange and the rest drops to the table, hitting a ball in the process. What happens?

If there is likely to be any ambiguity in nomnination by indication, then the referee should ask for a verbal declaration. If he fails to ask then he cannot call a foul for hitting a 'wrong' ball (compared to what he thought the striker was aiming for). He must give the benefit of the doubt to the striker. But a good referee will always ask for a verbal declaration if he's unsure, particularly if there are two colours close together, and if the striker does not then verbally declare it is a foul penalty seven points regardless of what he hits.

Again a good referee will not handle a rest over the table for the very reason of the possibility of dropping it! It is the striker's responsibility to place and remove any rests.

but just as the original question, this does happen (the ref and player fumble together and balls disturbed) would this be covered by 3.15(b) No player shall be penalised for any disturbance of balls by the referee. and the balls replaced as best as possible?

[Billy]

Yes, Dean. It happens all the time, especially with the extended rest. I don't think I've ever seen a player get the extended rest themselves.

Also, the failure to nominate. Again, I can't remember the last time I heard a ref say 'Please nominate' except when the player is on a colour and also touching a colour. And surely the player hasn't failed to nominate until they strike the cue ball?