A rules question

[Bruce]

A player in-hand commits a 'foul and a miss' and is asked to play again from the original position. Does the cue ball have to be replaced in the same position or is the fouling player still in-hand in that situation?

[elvaago]

He'd have to be pretty daft to commit a foul in that situation!

But I'm afraid I don't know the answer for sure.

[hegeland]

I would say the balls would have to be replaced in the same position as before the stroke, including the cue ball.

[nzsnookerfan]

All the balls affecting the shot are put back, since it has been ' replaced ' , so therefore goes back to where it originally was, i saw this happen to hendry once...

[The Statman]

Yes, the cue-ball is replaced in the position the player originally put it.

[Bruce]

Thanks guys!

[dantuck_7]

Heres another one...

Player 1 is 14 points behind with pink and black left chasing one snooker to win.

Player 2 rolls the pink over the pocket. Player 1 tries to clear the pink from the pocket but the pink drops and the white goes into the same pocket after rattling a couple of times (or with a slight variation into a different pocket).

The pink is replaced and a few safety shots are exchanged. Then 1st player gets a snooker and recieves 7 points as the black was hit first.

So, 13 behind. He/She then pots pink, black and the respotted black to win the deciding frame.


Is the pink allowed to be replaced or could it have been called a deliberate foul?

[The Statman]

...
Is the pink allowed to be replaced or could it have been called a deliberate foul?

It could have been called a deliberate foul – it almost certainly was – but there is nothing that can be done about it. A Miss can be called only if the player fails to hit the ball on (which didn't happen), and in any case is not called if a player needs snookers unless it was a blatant non-attempt (which it can't have been because the ball was hit).

Unfortunate, arguably, but there it is.

[dantuck_7]

It could have been called a deliberate foul – it almost certainly was – but there is nothing that can be done about it. A Miss can be called only if the player fails to hit the ball on (which didn't happen), and in any case is not called if a player needs snookers unless it was a blatant non-attempt (which it can't have been because the ball was hit).

Unfortunate, arguably, but there it is.

Sorry I've used the wrong terminology here. Should have said....

The pink is respotted and a few safety shots are exchanged. Then 1st player gets a snooker and receives 7 points as the black was hit first.

So, 13 behind. He/She then pots pink, black and the respotted black to win the deciding frame.

Is the pink allowed to be respotted or could it have been called a deliberate foul?


-----

This didn't actually happen to me - just a weird situation I'm wondering about.

So, you're saying that the pink is allowed to be respotted even if it was likely to have been a deliberate foul?

What are the rules on deliberate fouls then - can you not replace the pink over the pocket if the ref thinks it was blatant?

[The Statman]

Sorry I've used the wrong terminology here. Should have said....

The pink is respotted and a few safety shots are exchanged. Then 1st player gets a snooker and receives 7 points as the black was hit first.

So, 13 behind. He/She then pots pink, black and the respotted black to win the deciding frame.

Is the pink allowed to be respotted or could it have been called a deliberate foul?


-----

This didn't actually happen to me - just a weird situation I'm wondering about.

So, you're saying that the pink is allowed to be respotted even if it was likely to have been a deliberate foul?

What are the rules on deliberate fouls then - can you not replace the pink over the pocket if the ref thinks it was blatant?

No it can't.

There is nothing in the rules to stop a deliberate foul, other than the Miss, which is specifically for not hitting the object ball.

If the object ball is hit, the game proceeds in the usual way with no distinction as to whether the action is deliberate or accidental.

In the case in question, the pink was pocketed during a foul shot – so it can only be spotted.

[APK]

A player in-hand commits a 'foul and a miss' and is asked to play again from the original position. Does the cue ball have to be replaced in the same position or is the fouling player still in-hand in that situation?

I have just seen this thread and would like to make a correction to the answers given to the original question.

As the ball is 'in-hand', if the player still has the ball in his hand (including positioning the cue-ball with his fingers) then the ball is considered to be in hand and the incoming player can place the cue-ball anywhere in the 'D' (as the referee, I would move the cue-ball to the baulk cushion to show that it is in-hand). However, if the striker has placed the cue-ball on the table and is positioning it with the tip of his cue for example when the foul is committed then the cue-ball would have to be replaced to it's original position.

[The Statman]

I have just seen this thread and would like to make a correction to the answers given to the original question.

As the ball is 'in-hand', if the player still has the ball in his hand (including positioning the cue-ball with his fingers) then the ball is considered to be in hand and the incoming player can place the cue-ball anywhere in the 'D' (as the referee, I would move the cue-ball to the baulk cushion to show that it is in-hand). However, if the striker has placed the cue-ball on the table and is positioning it with the tip of his cue for example when the foul is committed then the cue-ball would have to be replaced to it's original position.

I think you've misread the question, Alan.

The questioner was referring to a player, in hand, fouling and being called a Miss, and the opponent asking for the balls replaced... does the white go anywhere or back where the offender placed it originally.

[DawRef]

(including positioning the cue-ball with his fingers) then the ball is considered to be in hand and the incoming player can place the cue-ball anywhere in the 'D'

I put this to Jan ver Haas a year or so ago, asking that if a player is positioning the cue-ball in the 'D' with his hand and fouls the yellow, is the cue ball still in hand? His answer was 'No'. The cue ball would have to be played from the position it was at, when the foul was committed.

This could prove awkward because if there is a position in the 'D' where if the cue ball is placed it could be a free ball, that could have a complete difference on the outcome of the frame and even the match!

[The Statman]

DawRef

Thinking about that scenario, as far as I am aware it depends whether the cue-ball is on the table.

If the ball is on the table and the player is rolling it to the desired position and his hand touches the (say) yellow, then the ball is in play (whether or not it is in the D) and the next player MUST play from where it lies.

But if the player has the ball grasped in his hand, and touches the yellow with his hand while the ball is being held but not in contact with the table, then the ball remains in hand and the next player plays from the D in the normal way.

I can't remember the exact wording but the Rules state that the cue-ball is in hand at the start of the game, and when it has been pocketed or forced off the table – and remains so until fairly played from the D or a foul is committed while the ball is on the table.

This second part is the important one.

[APK]

This was one of my questions when I took my Class 1 exam some years ago now. I remember that I had been talking to my area tutor a few weeks earlier and the answer was given that as long as the striker is still touching the cue-ball with his hand then the ball remains in-hand and after a foul, the incoming player has the cue-ball in-hand. If he lets go of the ball, then it is in play but if he then picks it up or moves it with his hand it is in-hand again whilst it is being touched.
It sounded quite acceptable then and it still does. In-hand literally meaning touched by the hand.

Chris, I realsied I was wavering from the exact meaning of the original question but this is a point that we both know that players and officials debate on this issue when it occurs so I thought it was worth elaborating for inclusion.