Free Ball

[Manvilla]

If a player goes in off on the last red and the red stops on the baulk line right beside the green is this a free ball?

Just to try and visualise it these circles represent the baulk colours on their spots and the last red is the second circle from the left resting beside the green.

oo__o__o
GR---B--Y

G-Green R-Red B-Brown Y-Yellow

I dont think this is a free ball yet 2 qualified referees were adamant that it was.

The reason I believed it wasnt a free ball was that whilst a player has the cue ball in hand the cue ball can be placed any where in the baulk area and one of the places I could place the cue ball is so close to the red that the cue ball and red are almost touching and therefore a player can hit both sides of the ball on from that position. In my opinion to give a free ball here would be like a player going in off on the break and the incoming player placing the cue ball behind a baulk colour and saying to the referee "now I cant see both sides of the ball on give me a free ball"

Can anyone see my point on this and more to the point can anyone understand the situation Im attempting to describe here? I need an answer to this so if clarity is needed by anyone please let me know where you need it and I will make a better attempt at describing this situation.

[DawRef]

No.
In this case for it to be a free ball, the cue ball must not be able to hit both sides of the ball on from all points within the 'D'. If I have read your question correctly, then if you place the cue ball on the baulk line between the brown and red, then it would not be a free ball, as you could easily hit both edges of the ball on (in this case the final red).
As a matter of fact, what grades were the referees you asked?

[Manvilla]

Thank you Dawref for your answer. Its what I expected. The way you described it is very easy understand.

Unfortunately I cant answer your question re Grades of Refs but I can tell you they are refereeing at a high level in Ireland. They were trying to convince me that it was a free ball because of the fact that the red was stuck to the green and the green was obstructing the player striking both edges. They would not accept that when the cue ball was placed within a hairs breath of the red that both extremes could be struck. If only I had thought of your explanation at the time as it would have made it much clearer to them Im sure. Anyway I lost that argument and it was an Irish ranking tournament to make it even more frustrating. It annoyed me that trained refs could not see the point I was making at the time and practically ganged up on me until I had no choice but to give in.

PS
If the brown was on the other side of the red as illustrated below (red sandwiched between colours) I can still place the cue ball in a position (ie a hairs breath from the red) where I can hit both extremes . What is your opinion on that Dawref? I still dont think its a free ball.

ooo
GRB
G-green R-Red B-Brown

[joe2311]

that is a free ball. if the red is sandwiched between the green and brown how can you hit both extremes it is impossible no matter where you put the white as the red is touching the green and brown the white must be able to pass both sides of the red without hitting the green or brown if you look at the g|r|b green red brown the two lines in between thats where the white must pass without hitting either green and brown .

g|r|b

[dantuck_7]

Going back to the original situation....

------
In this case for it to be a free ball, the cue ball must not be able to hit both sides of the ball on from all points within the 'D'.
------

Is the definition not any point within the 'D'?


Does this mean that you could place the cue-ball in two diffierent positions within the 'D' and if you can hit both sides of the oject ball from these two positions then it's not a free ball?

[Manvilla]

Thanks for all replies. Joe2311 you seem very definite in your reply but if the cue ball is placed as close to the red as physically possible without it actually being a touching ball then I can hit both extremes of the ball on considering the proximity of both cue ball and red.

In fact if I done the above I wouldn't be able to hit Green or Brown with the cue ball because I would be so close to the red. Therefore If I cant pass the red to get to Green or Brown I can hit both extremes of the red again you must consider the proximity of both cue ball and red.

I still say no free ball. Only when you have the cue ball in hand

[dantuck_7]

The sketch below is why I don't think the original situation is a free ball.

As for the red touching yellow and brown even if the white is placed virtually touching the red - it has to be a free ball??

[Manvilla]

Dantuck_7 thank you for that sketch and I agree with you on that point.

But as for the the second point. Lets take another example....what if the cue ball after a foul ends up virtually touching the last red on the table and the colours are no where near the cue ball and red. Would you also call that a free ball?

Again, its not, because the player can hit both sides of the red. The extreme edge in this case is all relative to the distance between the cue ball and red. So in the case Im describing the extreme edge of the object ball is not the absolute left hand side or right hand side of the red.

Ive drawn a sketch and pointed arrows at the extreme edges in the case of the sandwiched red and the ball in hand. Its not as good as yours but I hope you can understand it.

[The Statman]

Manvilla

Yes you are absolutely right. If the last red is on the baulk line, sandwiched between two colours which are also on the baulk line, then no free ball can be claimed, because – exactly as you say – you can place the white in the D, almost touching the red, and you can hit the red on both extreme edges. Those two directions may be almost opposite one another, but nevertheless it is the finest edges of the ball from that position.

[The Statman]

Here is a sketch

Here is a sketch. It is split into two parts.



(Alternative version [img=http://aycu20.webshots.com/image/47619/2001473353229145249_th.jpg] )

The top half explains exactly what we mean by hitting both sides. The parallel lines and the hollow circles show the path of the cue-ball that must be kept free from obstruction. The exact area needing consideration I have made a paler shade of green.

I have added a few colours, and we can see that the yellow, pink and black would cause a free ball, but the brown would not.

===============

Now, using the same basics, I have drawn a D. On the left hand side I have placed a green and brown on the baulk line with a red between them. I have then placed the white in the D in such a position that it is possible to hit both sides and therefore a free ball situation does not exist.

I have added the lines and circles and the paler green to the relevant area.

===============

Now, to create a bit more thought, I have set up another situation on the other corner of the D, in which the red is outside the D, and the yellow and blue are less than a ball's width apart – but there is still no free ball because the white can be placed in the D so that it is closer to the red than it is to either of the colours, and the same principle as the green/brown situation applies.

Here, if the situation was the same but a half-inch or so (maybe less) out of the D, then the free ball would be called as the white does not actually pass through the gap.

[Manvilla]

Thank you Statman that is the clarity I was looking for. I apreciate your effort in helping me conclude this issue.

I still believe I would have a job convincing an average referee of this if it came about in a match though.

Anyway thanks again!

[DawRef]

any point within the 'D'

You are right. I did mean any point within the 'D'

[joe2311]

statman i am a bit confused here are you saying the diagram in reply 8 is a free ball or not as it clearly a free ball as for the diagram in reply 7 this is not a free ball as you can put the white next to the brown in a straight line and hit both edges of the red .

[joe2311]

Here is a sketch. It is split into two parts.



(Alternative version [img=http://aycu20.webshots.com/image/47619/2001473353229145249_th.jpg] )

The top half explains exactly what we mean by hitting both sides. The parallel lines and the hollow circles show the path of the cue-ball that must be kept free from obstruction. The exact area needing consideration I have made a paler shade of green.

I have added a few colours, and we can see that the yellow, pink and black would cause a free ball, but the brown would not.

===============

Now, using the same basics, I have drawn a D. On the left hand side I have placed a green and brown on the baulk line with a red between them. I have then placed the white in the D in such a position that it is possible to hit both sides and therefore a free ball situation does not exist.

I have added the lines and circles and the paler green to the relevant area.

===============

Now, to create a bit more thought, I have set up another situation on the other corner of the D, in which the red is outside the D, and the yellow and blue are less than a ball's width apart – but there is still no free ball because the white can be placed in the D so that it is closer to the red than it is to either of the colours, and the same principle as the green/brown situation applies.

Here, if the situation was the same but a half-inch or so (maybe less) out of the D, then the free ball would be called as the white does not actually pass through the gap.

statman the diagram on the left han side with the balls in a straight line are you saying this is or isnt a free ball because no matter where you place the white it is a free ball from what i have read you seem to think it is not a free ball .in fact all there diargams are free balls

[joe2311]

Thanks for all replies. Joe2311 you seem very definite in your reply but if the cue ball is placed as close to the red as physically possible without it actually being a touching ball then I can hit both extremes of the ball on considering the proximity of both cue ball and red.

In fact if I done the above I wouldn't be able to hit Green or Brown with the cue ball because I would be so close to the red. Therefore If I cant pass the red to get to Green or Brown I can hit both extremes of the red again you must consider the proximity of both cue ball and red.

I still say no free ball. Only when you have the cue ball in hand

manvilla i think sorry know you are a little confused about what is the extremes of the red in question . you must be able to hit the red on equal
opposite sides


green|red|brown




white the white must be able to pass in between the red and green and the red and brown without touching the green or brown before the white touches the edge of the red on equal sides of the ball