Did this rule change?

[Manvilla]

I remember about 3 or 4 years ago refereeing a match and player 1 went for a red but left in lying precariously over the pocket. Player 2 came to the table and cued up to the shot but before he struck the shot the red dropped in the pocket. I replaced the red and advised player 2 to continue.

Question 1: Was that the correct thing to do?

Question 2: Did the ruling on this change and previous to the change player 2 would have been given a 4 point penalty and player 1 would come back to the table to start a new shot?

[wildJONESEYE]

no i believe that ruling to be the same........

suerly once player 2 is at the table ready to cue....the shot has nothing what so ever to do with player 1.......the vibration of player 2 walking towards the Table could have caused the ball to drop so how is that right that player 2 is awarded a foul for him being responsable to the ball droping??

[The Statman]

I think it used to be different in pool but not in snooker.

The correct thing to do is to simply replace the ball where it was. If it happened when the player was so close to striking that he actually played a shot at the ball that was no longer there, all balls should be replaced and the shot re-taken.

If the shot played was a foul (not involving the disappearing ball), then all balls are replaced and the next player has the usual options after a foul.

[100-uper]

I remember about 3 or 4 years ago refereeing a match and player 1 went for a red but left in lying precariously over the pocket. Player 2 came to the table and cued up to the shot but before he struck the shot the red dropped in the pocket. I replaced the red and advised player 2 to continue.

Question 1: Was that the correct thing to do?

Question 2: Did the ruling on this change and previous to the change player 2 would have been given a 4 point penalty and player 1 would come back to the table to start a new shot?

The rule was modified some years ago, but it would not have affected the decision you made. It used to be the case that a player's turn ended when all the balls had come to rest AND the player had left the table. The rule changed to remove this last part so even if the player waited around expectantly, the referee would still have called an end to the break and replaced any ball which dropped, if he felt that it had come to rest.

[The Statman]

The rule was modified some years ago, but it would not have affected the decision you made. It used to be the case that a player's turn ended when all the balls had come to rest AND the player had left the table. The rule changed to remove this last part so even if the player waited around expectantly, the referee would still have called an end to the break and replaced any ball which dropped, if he felt that it had come to rest.

Quite so. His turn is still 'live' until he leaves the table, in that if all the balls have come to rest and then the player turns to walk away he touches a ball – he would still be fouled – but as you say the referee would not allow the ball to count if it did so and the player waited around.

Still, I don't think it has ever been the case that a player would be penalised if a ball fell in of its own accord.

[poolqjunkie]

In American pool, if the ball stays up for 5 seconds then it will be replaced if it drops. I think it is 5 seconds or 3 or something like that.
Is there any provision similiar in the rule of snooker?

[The Statman]

In American pool, if the ball stays up for 5 seconds then it will be replaced if it drops. I think it is 5 seconds or 3 or something like that.
Is there any provision similiar in the rule of snooker?

No there's no time limit. If the ball stops momentarily on the edge of the pocket and then drops in, it counts. It is up to the referee to define 'momentarily' in each case.

A thicker cloth might well delay a ball from dropping for longer than a thinner cloth.

It is possible to get a feel for whether a ball is going to fall; don't know how to quantify it but a few times I've played a shot and could tell that, although it appeared to have stopped, it was going to fall after a second or two.

[poolqjunkie]

No there's no time limit. If the ball stops momentarily on the edge of the pocket and then drops in, it counts. It is up to the referee to define 'momentarily' in each case.

A thicker cloth might well delay a ball from dropping for longer than a thinner cloth.

It is possible to get a feel for whether a ball is going to fall; don't know how to quantify it but a few times I've played a shot and could tell that, although it appeared to have stopped, it was going to fall after a second or two.

So, if after I finish taking my shot while the ball stops at the edge of the pocket, I stay at the table a bit longer chalking my cue or whatever...then the ball drops...can I keep shooting?
How about if there is no referee? Who is to decide when my turn ends at the table?
If it is an informal match, and my opponent is talking to someone else, so I just stand next to the table even after my turn is over, and then a ball just drop due to vibration or whatever, is that considered my pot?
Thank you.

[The Statman]

So, if after I finish taking my shot while the ball stops at the edge of the pocket, I stay at the table a bit longer chalking my cue or whatever...then the ball drops...can I keep shooting?
How about if there is no referee? Who is to decide when my turn ends at the table?
If it is an informal match, and my opponent is talking to someone else, so I just stand next to the table even after my turn is over, and then a ball just drop due to vibration or whatever, is that considered my pot?
Thank you.

It is for the referee to decide whether the ball has stopped moving or not, regardless of whether the player is still stood there, whether other balls are still moving, or anything else.

If the referee decides that the ball had stopped moving and it then drops in (meaning essentially it is as a result of some vibration occurring) then he will simply replace it.

Whether the turn is finished, and whether the player is still at the table, has relevance in another area, and that is if he should disturb a ball on his way back to his seat – if he is still the striker he can be fouled for it; if he is not, he cannot.

If there is no official referee in charge, then according to rule the other player (or side) is considered as the referee.

One would hope that in a social game between friends, that you would converse and decide between you whather the ball went in as part of the shot, or merely as a vibration after the shot had finished.

PS Don't forget, we are probably all visualising a red that stops short and later drops – it could just as easily be an illegal ball that is involved. But whichever, if it's agreed that the ball HAD stopped moving and then fell due to vibration, then it is just replaced. If it was the ball on, it doesn't score, and if it was another object ball (or the white, of course) then it is not a foul.



Another quick point. Imagine the white is on the edge of the pocket, and you are about to play your shot, and the white falls into the pocket just as you are delivering the cue – and the sudden absence of the white causes the cue to go through and hit another ball. In that case the balls would all be replaced, including the white, and you would play the shot again.

This comes not so much under the 'vibration rule' as the 'ball moved by other than striker' rule whereby no player can be penalised for something occurring as a result of a third party's influence.

[hegeland]

Just post to confirm that pool rules are indeed 5 seconds.

Section 8.3 of the WPA rules says:

"If a ball stops near the edge of a pocket, and remains apparently motionless for five seconds, it is not considered pocketed if it later falls into the pocket by itself."