Rule Clarification: The Perfect Snooker

[awilliamson]

Good morning one and all.

Had an interesting situation in a game of snooker last night that after looking up the official rules we couldn't resolve. Based on reading here, I think you guys should easily figure it out.

The situation was relatively simple; PlayerX had left PlayerY in the perfect snooker. He could not perform a legal shot without fouling. The yellow ball was sitting over the pocket, covered completely by the brown ball.

All the reds had been potted, and PlayerX was 18points ahead.

PlayerY was claiming that since he couldn't make a legal shot the frame should be re-racked.

PlayerX was claiming that he shouldn't be penalised the frame for setting up the "perfect" snooker.

Summary:

- No physical way to hit the yellow without fouling
- PlayerX was 18points a head

What is the official situation in this scenario?

[Kyra]

Good morning one and all.

Had an interesting situation in a game of snooker last night that after looking up the official rules we couldn't resolve. Based on reading here, I think you guys should easily figure it out.

The situation was relatively simple; PlayerX had left PlayerY in the perfect snooker. He could not perform a legal shot without fouling. The yellow ball was sitting over the pocket, covered completely by the brown ball.

All the reds had been potted, and PlayerX was 18points ahead.

PlayerY was claiming that since he couldn't make a legal shot the frame should be re-racked.

PlayerX was claiming that he shouldn't be penalised the frame for setting up the "perfect" snooker.

Summary:

- No physical way to hit the yellow without fouling
- PlayerX was 18points a head

What is the official situation in this scenario?

I think there is a solution in the official rules:

14. Foul and a Miss
The striker shall, to the best of his ability, endeavour to hit the ball on. If the referee considers the Rule infringed, he shall call FOUL AND A MISS unless only the Black remains on the table, or a situation exists where it is impossible to hit the ball on. In the latter case it must be assumed the striker is attempting to hit the ball on provided that he plays, directly or indirectly, in the direction of the ball on with sufficient strength, in the referee’s opinion, to have reached the ball on but the obstructing ball or balls.

If player Y playes the cue ball in the right direction an with the right speed, the foul will be inevitable. But the ref will only call a foul here as it is an impossible shot.
Player X is right here. There is absolutely no reason for a re-rack. You will find nothing like that in the rules.

[awilliamson]

Appreciate the fast response kyra - makes sense

[Odrl]

Just a thought...

If you bounce the cue ball on the rail (like the famous McManus fluke), and it rolls along just past the brown, then falls off and hits the jellow. Wouldn't that be a legal shot(providing the cue ball doesn't go in off)?

[Kyra]

Just a thought...

If you bounce the cue ball on the rail (like the famous McManus fluke), and it rolls along just past the brown, then falls off and hits the jellow. Wouldn't that be a legal shot(providing the cue ball doesn't go in off)?

As long as the cue ball doesn't "jump" over the brown it would indeed be a legal shot. In the situation described above it would not work because brown and yellow are very close together. But a nice thought anyway
A clubmate recently did a "McManus". He hit a red so hard that it bouced onto the rail, rolled along it and fell in the pocket

[Shaggy365]

A clubmate recently did a "McManus". He hit a red so hard that it bouced onto the rail, rolled along it and fell in the pocket

But did you video it so you could put in Youtube?

[vuce]

A clubmate recently did a "McManus". He hit a red so hard that it bouced onto the rail, rolled along it and fell in the pocket

url or it didn't happen! ;P

[Kyra]

url or it didn't happen! ;P

Exactly what my clubmate said Unfortunately we don't have it on video. It was a league match and the shot was pure coicidence But as the referee who witnessed it I can assure you that it really happened

[Watford]

I think there is a solution in the official rules:

14. Foul and a Miss
The striker shall, to the best of his ability, endeavour to hit the ball on. If the referee considers the Rule infringed, he shall call FOUL AND A MISS unless only the Black remains on the table, or a situation exists where it is impossible to hit the ball on. In the latter case it must be assumed the striker is attempting to hit the ball on provided that he plays, directly or indirectly, in the direction of the ball on with sufficient strength, in the referee’s opinion, to have reached the ball on but the obstructing ball or balls.

If player Y playes the cue ball in the right direction an with the right speed, the foul will be inevitable. But the ref will only call a foul here as it is an impossible shot.
Player X is right here. There is absolutely no reason for a re-rack. You will find nothing like that in the rules.

Only pros play the miss rule so this is no good for in the club.
Hmmm tough though you of course put the player "back in" in the amateur game so it's difficult. In practice I suppose you'd whack the brown and take the foul?????

[archalf1471]

watford. whilst it is a bone of contention, certainly where i live, your comment aabout "only pro's playing the miss rule" is wrong. In all competitions a miss rule is in play and to my mind it should be. Certainly in our county comps etc it is a given and rightly so. But in league snooker is is a contentious issue which would be difficult to manage where a majority of players are "club standard" at best, and also the majority of players not being aware of the correct interpretation of the rule

[Watford]

Oh right!
Never played snooker to that level; I know the local leagues don't play it. Must be bloody hard to enforce. I wouldn't like to ref!
Should make rule like World Rules at 8 ball and allow deliberate fouls, that would be loads of fun.

[LWB]

Oh right!
Never played snooker to that level; I know the local leagues don't play it. Must be bloody hard to enforce. I wouldn't like to ref!
Should make rule like World Rules at 8 ball and allow deliberate fouls, that would be loads of fun.

I know this isn't relevant but out of interest, in the 8ball rules we play in our league (BAPTO ) If there is no way to get out of a snooker it's a re-rack! crazy...

[Watford]

I thought you BAPTO types had brought in the "Skill shot" for this?
Certainly at old EPA it was a re-rack but now under World Rules it's fine.

[LWB]

I thought you BAPTO types had brought in the "Skill shot" for this?
Certainly at old EPA it was a re-rack but now under World Rules it's fine.

I don't know anything about the skill shot watford but if you want to tell me I'm interested.

[Watford]

Skill shots
If a player has one of their object balls covering a pocket then their opponent may on their visit pot it by way of a skill shot.

This is when he/she pots one of their own object balls in the same shot, they must hit their own object ball first but the order of which the balls pot does not make a difference

I pinched this from a local leagues rules on google. http://tenburypoolleague.co.uk/rules.htm
I first saw it when watching some BAPTO/Federation pool on sky about two years ago (which is unusual, it's normally world rules on sky. Lot's of people all playing at once and the crowd shouting out very strange).
I know they put it in the "Blackball" Rules that came out a year or two ago (which is a mixture of World & BAPTO rules). Maybe that rule never cought on, I don't know much about BAPTO. I do remeber two girls (BAPTO players) who come to a WR comp in Blackpool and they talked abou the Skill shot.
I'll do more digging!