miss and touching blue

[Phil]

okay. I should play on red, miss and touch blue. 5 points for my opponent. he insists on a miss and that I repeat the shot. is it 4 for the miss or 5 for touching blue?

now after blue has been touched it has of course moved. does blue have to be replaced again where it was before or not, when I have to replay? what if no one recalls where it was exactly located before the foul.

and how many times can the opponent call for a miss?

[Robert602]

The miss never affects how many points are given for the foul - if it's a five point foul then it's five points whether or not a miss is called or taken.

If a miss is taken then all balls are replaced to their original positions. If you really can't remember where the balls were then just make your best effort until both players are happy. Some balls (cue ball, snookering ball etc) will be more important to get right than others.

Except in exceptional circumstances a miss can't be called when snookers are required by either player, that's the only limit. Anything more than 3 or 4 in an amateur game though and you're probably applying the rule too harshly - remember to take the ability of the player and difficulty of the shot into account when judging whether they've made their best effort to hit a ball. Don't just copy the way they apply the rule on TV.

A special rule is that if you can see a legal ball to hit it full on, and you miss three consecutive times, then you lose the frame.

[davidhawkes]

Except in exceptional circumstances a miss can't be called when snookers are required by either player, that's the only limit.

There is a time when a miss can be called when either player needs snookers.

That is when it is a delibarate miss.

For example, a player may intentionally screw back in-off whilst potting a red - yes the opponent gains a four point award but loses a potential 8 points.

[Phil]

okay, so we did it right, thanks.

I always get a bit confused about the miss rule.

they were tricky shots, nicely played snookers and so we decided that after 3 trys the opponent get's his turn to continue.

I will be asking other "stupid questions" again, I'm sure.

[tallguy]

There is a time when a miss can be called when either player needs snookers.

That is when it is a delibarate miss.

For example, a player may intentionally screw back in-off whilst potting a red - yes the opponent gains a four point award but loses a potential 8 points.

Is that a miss ? He didn't "miss" the ball on , in fact he potted it too.

The situation is discussed in this thread too. See question 2.


But I think you are right about foul and miss being called for deliberate miss even when snookers are required. Not sure where I read about it.

[The Statman]

There is a time when a miss can be called when either player needs snookers.

That is when it is a delibarate miss.

For example, a player may intentionally screw back in-off whilst potting a red - yes the opponent gains a four point award but loses a potential 8 points.

Is that a miss ? He didn't "miss" the ball on , in fact he potted it too.

The situation is discussed in this thread too. See question 2.


But I think you are right about foul and miss being called for deliberate miss even when snookers are required. Not sure where I read about it.

Indeed.

A Miss can only be called if the ball on is not hit.

However, David is right that a Miss can be called if it is deliberate regardless of the difference in scores.

This would normally be used where a player is snookered and decides to just tap the cue-ball a few inches with obviously no intention of hitting the ball on.

[APK]

Just to push the thread a little further, there was a situation at an EASB tournament on Sunday which is the only time I have it in a decade plus of refereeing.
Player A tried to play the cueball into the pack whilst potting a red but miscued and the cuseball jumped into the middle of the pack. When it came to rest it was completely surrounded by reds and he had potted his intended red.

This was followed by several emotions at once.
Delight that the red had dropped.
Surprise that the cueball had taken flight.
Humour that the cueball had landed in the middle of the pack of reds.
Horror when it dawned on him that he was now on a colour!

The rule here is that the player has to 'attempt' to hit a ball on. So he nominated his colour and struck the cueball at it with enough pace that, had the reds not been there, it would have reached.

Now ponder this.
When playing for the colour, he miscues and the cueball skids to one side making contact with several reds.
Would you feel bad in calling a Miss?
I would. I know I have to but it is rubbing salt in the wound.
I wouln't relish resetting the shot if the opponent asked either.

[poolqjunkie]

Just to push the thread a little further, there was a situation at an EASB tournament on Sunday which is the only time I have it in a decade plus of refereeing.
Player A tried to play the cueball into the pack whilst potting a red but miscued and the cuseball jumped into the middle of the pack. When it came to rest it was completely surrounded by reds and he had potted his intended red.

This was followed by several emotions at once.
Delight that the red had dropped.
Surprise that the cueball had taken flight.
Humour that the cueball had landed in the middle of the pack of reds.
Horror when it dawned on him that he was now on a colour!

The rule here is that the player has to 'attempt' to hit a ball on. So he nominated his colour and struck the cueball at it with enough pace that, had the reds not been there, it would have reached.

Now ponder this.
When playing for the colour, he miscues and the cueball skids to one side making contact with several reds.
Would you feel bad in calling a Miss?
I would. I know I have to but it is rubbing salt in the wound.
I wouln't relish resetting the shot if the opponent asked either.

If the shot was impossible to hit, then how could you call a "miss?" I am always under the impression that a foul and a miss is only called on shots that a player with a certain level is believed to have the ability to hit, and therefore should have attempted with his full capability. When he is totally blocked by the reds, with no way out to hit a color, then he would have not way of hitting the color no matter how good he is. So, how could a "miss" be called?

[The Statman]

If the shot was impossible to hit, then how could you call a "miss?" I am always under the impression that a foul and a miss is only called on shots that a player with a certain level is believed to have the ability to hit, and therefore should have attempted with his full capability. When he is totally blocked by the reds, with no way out to hit a color, then he would have not way of hitting the color no matter how good he is. So, how could a "miss" be called?

Yes but the Rule is quite specific on the 'impossible' snooker.

If it is impossible to hit the ball on (the usual situation is the white in the jaws of the pocket with a colour in front, but APK's example above is another), you must play with sufficient strength to have hit the ball on, if the intervening balls were not there.

It essentially means you have to 'pretend' to try to hit the ball on, and cannot just tap the cue-ball (into the pocket in my example).

That is in the spirit of playing to 'the best of one's ability', however silly it may seem.

[poolqjunkie]

Yes but the Rule is quite specific on the 'impossible' snooker.

If it is impossible to hit the ball on (the usual situation is the white in the jaws of the pocket with a colour in front, but APK's example above is another), you must play with sufficient strength to have hit the ball on, if the intervening balls were not there.

It essentially means you have to 'pretend' to try to hit the ball on, and cannot just tap the cue-ball (into the pocket in my example).

That is in the spirit of playing to 'the best of one's ability', however silly it may seem.

But isn't foul and a miss applied based on the level of the player, and the ability of the player to hit the snooker? In that spirit, how can this be enforced, when no matter how great one's level may be, that one cannot hit the snooker?

Could you please kindly show me the rule on this?

[The Statman]

But isn't foul and a miss applied based on the level of the player, and the ability of the player to hit the snooker? In that spirit, how can this be enforced, when no matter how great one's level may be, that one cannot hit the snooker?

Could you please kindly show me the rule on this?

The Miss Rule states that the player should attempt to hit the ball on to the best of his ability. In the case of an impossible snooker it shall be assumed that he has made an adequate attempt, as long as he plays with sufficient strength to have reached the object ball but for the intervening balls. Not word-for-word but you can read the exact wording on the worldsnooker website.

This is quite unequivocal. Because it is impossible, you can pretend that it is not a snooker and just aim towards the relevant ball with enough speed that it would have reached.

I don't any referee would assume that any player was capable of playing directly at a ball with sufficient strength. And that is what he must 'try'.

[Odrl]

If a player in an impossible position, deliberately played a jump shot, and hit the nominated colour (without touching any reds or other balls), would you call a miss?

[davidhawkes]

If a player in an impossible position, deliberately played a jump shot, and hit the nominated colour (without touching any reds or other balls), would you call a miss?

Well, this would then become a deliberate foul! So a miss should be called.

[Robert602]

Well, this would then become a deliberate foul! So a miss should be called.

On what grounds? The ball hasn't been missed.

[The Statman]

If a player in an impossible position, deliberately played a jump shot, and hit the nominated colour (without touching any reds or other balls), would you call a miss?

Definitely not. The Miss Rule is entirely clear that it can only be called for failure to hit the ball on.

No other kind of foul, deliberate or not, can be called a Miss.