Is there really such a thing as "unlucky"???

[RocketRoy1983]

I played with a guy once who hit a couple of maximums and was a very good and consistent player and I learnt a hell of a lot about the game from him as you always do playing better players.

However, one thing that I could never understand that he said and always insisted was that there is no such thing as an "unlucky" shot. If i insisted that i was unlucky if i potted a red and played it as a shot to nothing, got the pot but the white ball went in off in one of the baulk pockets he would simply say "The angle was there though you should have seen it"

Before any of you say, he wasnt saying this as some kind of advice or some kind of warning to me he was deadly serious. He still maintains that any shot you play if the white goes in off or if you hit a ball too thin and the white goes in off that it is not unlucky but a bad shot.

What are your views on this?

[tallguy]

I guess it depends on how you define "luck" itself !!

I am interested in knowing if your friend labels flukes as "lucky" or says "The angle was there though"

If you don't think flukes are "lucky" you are well entitled to say crazy in-offs aren't "unlucky".

[Rane]

Yes, I think its a question of definitions. In theory you should be able to predict the run of every ball on the table and then offcause you can´t talk about good or bad luck, but in the real world even the best players sometimes gets surprised especially when several balls are in motion. Your friend would probably call it bad play, but for most others it will be caracterised as bad luck.

Yesterday Selby had a great split against John Higgins, very controlled and the white ball in a position where he could get to his shot quite easy next time, the only trouble was that all the loose reds had covered each others. He banged the floor with the queue, and by his facial expressions, he considered himself unlucky.

I also think Milkins considered himself unlucky yesterday, when Hendry missed a ball to the yellow corner that afterwards ended in the middle pocket.

[bongo]

I played with a guy once who hit a couple of maximums and was a very good and consistent player and I learnt a hell of a lot about the game from him as you always do playing better players.

However, one thing that I could never understand that he said and always insisted was that there is no such thing as an "unlucky" shot. If i insisted that i was unlucky if i potted a red and played it as a shot to nothing, got the pot but the white ball went in off in one of the baulk pockets he would simply say "The angle was there though you should have seen it"

Before any of you say, he wasnt saying this as some kind of advice or some kind of warning to me he was deadly serious. He still maintains that any shot you play if the white goes in off or if you hit a ball too thin and the white goes in off that it is not unlucky but a bad shot.

What are your views on this?

Very, very interesting topic, there is no answer to your question.

[poolqjunkie]

Well, I would say there are some "unlucky" shots on the table that you cannot predict, like if your cue ball rolls off due to a bad table, or go in-off with a carom on another ball, or you play a shot to nothing but then the red hit another red and carom the black in the corner...and so on.
I guess I can see what your friend is talking about. You should be able to see the path of the cue ball, and see what it would do and where it would end up in theory--but there are always things that you cannot control or see. I guess his statement might be a bit too generalized.

[double_kiss]

If you are almighty and omniscient, there really is no such thing as "unlucky".

[DawRef]

I remember reading a book by the great Joe Davis. He also said that there is no such thing as being 'unlucky'. He continued saying, (something like) "You play the stroke, so you should have an idea of where the ball(s) is (are) going.".
However, some players do seem to get 'the rub of the green' (especially playing against me!!).

[cueman]

Of course there is luck involved, I would say that nearly every sport has an element of luck involved. Are flukes not lucky! Every time you play into the pack of reds you are relying on luck to firstly get a good split and secondly leave yourself a pot.

[Snookeraddict147]

Luck is in Snooker not so important as in Pool! but some people say a kick is `unluck`you cant plan where the cueball/objectball is going!!

Its just a question of the right words....

You can not really say Snooker is a question of luck but somehow youll need it....:snooker:...unfortunately me not... so practising more and more:snooker::snooker::snooker:

[daoc2006]

Luck and Bad Shots

Accept Luck is Part of the Game. When you see the players on TV play into the pack of reds, you don’t see the other player say, “Ohhhh! You lucky so and so”. (If he lands perfectly on a red). There is always an element of luck when moving balls away from cushions and cannoning balls out of the way to make room for another. I believe if you play the shot well, you deserve luck to go your way. However having luck at the beginning is not as good as having luck at the end.

Snooker is all you. Its up to you if you play a good shot or a bad shot. You can blame things on poor technique, luck or what ever but at the end of the day its up to you to play the shots. And if you play a poor shot, you have no grounds for complaining when you’ve left your opponent a gift of a chance. It probably wouldn’t have happened if you had played your shot well. If you don’t want to leave your opponents easy starters then don’t miss easy shots yourself. It’s all very well saying something like “I gave you all these points” or something along those lines. But its up to the player to control the cue ball and make the pots. For example if you happen to miss a sitter you have no grounds for complaining because it wasn’t luck, it was a misjudgement from you in a shot you played. If you had made the shot you wouldn’t have left the other player a load of points on so don’t complain when you do.

Penalty Points and Luck

When you fail to a hit ball, or the cue ball goes in the pocket etc, you give points to your opponent. Again, you cannot complain when these things happen unless it is genuine bad luck. Because if you played that shot well in the first place you wouldn’t have gone in off etc. Sometimes you see players go in off and blame luck but in reality the cue ball shouldn’t have gone anywhere near the pocket and if you misjudge shots so badly, sometimes you get what you deserve.

Genuine Bad Luck

Bad luck happens. If you go into the pack and go in off, that is more bad luck than bad shot. But that shot has more chance of happening if you catch the side of the pack and that could be classed, as a bad shot having not caught them full. It sometimes can be a fine line between bad luck and playing a bad shot. But in the most part a bad shot has nothing to do with bad luck.

Going back to the point I made above, there can be times when going in off can be bad luck also. For example the cue ball makes a lot of little cannons on other balls and then somehow finds its way into a pocket when playing a safety shot when the cue ball is travelling back up the table from hitting a red.


There is also some possible debate on when the cue ball goes very near a pocket and looks like it may go in but in fact just doesn’t. Is this lucky? Well, depends. With some shots you will know that the cue balls naturally angle may be going near a pocket but you never really expect it to drop in. I don’t think it can be classed as good luck when the cue ball comes near but doesn’t quite go in because you’ve potted the ball in the first place and that by it self prevents your opponent coming to the table anyway. So when the cue ball doesn’t go in off when it looks very likely it may. It doesn’t really matter I don’t think its either bad or good luck. It’s just the way the ball landed on that particular shot.

So basically, there is such thing as bad luck but if you play a shot well, there is more chance of the out come to be good.

[RocketRoy1983]

I take all these points on board. As this guy said to me I truly believe there isnt really such thing as "bad luck" rather a poor shot. There are of course some scenarios listed above that push the barrier of bad luck however.

[tallguy]

...
As this guy said to me I truly believe there isnt really such thing as "bad luck" rather a poor shot.
...

Just curious to know RocketRoy. Do you think flukes are "lucky" ?
Yes or No answer please.

[Watford]

Of course there is luck involved, I would say that nearly every sport has an element of luck involved. Are flukes not lucky! Every time you play into the pack of reds you are relying on luck to firstly get a good split and secondly leave yourself a pot.

That's the best example of luck as a fact.
You split the reds off the blue a red hit's the black, it then hits two other reds and drops in the pocket. Should you of seen all that coming?

[The Statman]

That's the best example of luck as a fact.
You split the reds off the blue a red hit's the black, it then hits two other reds and drops in the pocket. Should you of seen all that coming?

Yes of course it's bad luck, and of course you couldn't see it coming.

But the fact is, when you play a shot over which you will have no foresight of where the balls are going, you are by definition accepting the percentage chance that it will go wrong.

You can argue about the exact figures, but I'd speculate that, when you go into the pack off the blue, maybe 70% of the time it'll come off, 15% of the time you'll end up on nothing, and 15% of the time you'll knock a red or other ball in.

You accept that chance whenever you commit to a shot that you cannot accurately predict. You will always play that shot because it's the correct shot and the odds are in your favour. But you cannot then complain of a red unluckily going in when you chose to play a shot whose outcome you cannot foresee.

If I leave my house at 4am and cross the road without looking, there's a high chance that I'll make it to the other side. But if I do get run over, I cannot complain about my bad luck if I chose not to look.

Another scenario is an attempted ball hitting the jaws; sometimes it stays over the pocket (or goes over another one); sometimes it rolls safe – and even, sometimes, ends up fluking in or knocking a colour in. Now by definition you were aiming for the pot so you could not be expected to predict the bounce from the jaws, and in any case that is difficult because of the curved cushion. But, if you have weighed up the options beforehand and you have decided that the best percentage shot was to take the difficult pot – knowing that if it missed then the result was down to luck – you cannot then complain about the luck which you knew would be involved.

Basically, if you know that a shot you are playing involves some sort of luck, then you are admitting that luck will play a factor. So don't complain about it.

[Watford]

That's a bit harsh I think statman.
If you play the right shot in the right way you can have a little moan!