Is there really such a thing as "unlucky"???

[The Statman]

That's a bit harsh I think statman.
If you play the right shot in the right way you can have a little moan!

Yes, have a moan at the time, but if you judge it to have an 80% chance of success, don't be surprised if it goes wrong once in every five!

At the end of the day you know that something unlucky could happen. It's still bad luck, but if you couldn't foresee that it would happen, but you could foresee that [b]could[/i] happen!

[RocketRoy1983]

Just curious to know RocketRoy. Do you think flukes are "lucky" ?
Yes or No answer please.

As I might say if I was a politician i'd say it depends on a number of possibilities haha. As I said in a previous post some scenarios (which we could spend all week listing) border on the bad luck side I admit. But if you are a serious player (which I am and several scores are on here) if you pot a red from the blue when going into them is that unlucky or should you have had a better look?

[tallguy]

Rocket, I think you would make a good politician or PR guy. You neatly sidestepped my well directed question and answered another which wasn't asked

I personally agree with most of what Statman has said. Most of what has been said concerns misfortune but I am looking at the other side of the coin. A scenario would be breaking the bunch of reds while going for a red. Like the scenario of potting the blue and going into the reds you aren't able to predict the path of the cue ball. So you are taking a chance in full knowledge of the risk and it may end up going horribly wrong. I think all of us agree on this.

Now what if you missed the red you went for by a mile but the cue ball while going into the reds knocked a red in and when everything has come to rest, you have all colors on spots, reds well spread and perfect shape on black. Now is that "lucky" ? My argument is that if you were among those who would have said "not unlucky" if the shot had gone wrong, it would be pretty hypocritical for you to term this lucky.

In short, if you think NO shot is unlucky don't complain if your opponent flukes the final black off seven cushions in the decider frame.


Do I think knocking a red when going into the reds off the blue is unlucky ?

If the player had a close look and thought the chances were 95% that it would come off well then I would term it a tad unlucky. Same shot, if he fluked the blue and got shape on a red I would term it extremely lucky.

At end of the day it isn't how you define luck that matters. It's how you deal with it . Like they say, It's all in the game.

[The Statman]

A scenario would be breaking the bunch of reds while going for a red. Like the scenario of potting the blue and going into the reds you aren't able to predict the path of the cue ball. So you are taking a chance in full knowledge of the risk and it may end up going horribly wrong. I think all of us agree on this.

Now what if you missed the red you went for by a mile but the cue ball while going into the reds knocked a red in and when everything has come to rest, you have all colors on spots, reds well spread and perfect shape on black. Now is that "lucky" ? My argument is that if you were among those who would have said "not unlucky" if the shot had gone wrong, it would be pretty hypocritical for you to term this lucky.

Yes, a good point. Again, perhaps, you should not look on it as 'lucky' but of course, there are lucky shots. You jiggle a simple red and it rolls along the cushion and drops in the other pocket; like you say, an attempted pot missed but you make some other pot by chance. Of course it's lucky.

I think it is a slightly different situation from that of going into the pack off the blue. WIth the shot off the blue, you not only know there is a chace it'll go wrong; you do it with the specific knowledge that a red might find its way into a pocket, if you choose to hit it that hard.

I guess it is inherent knowledge that with an attempted pot, if missed the red could go anywhere – and that includes the chance that it finds its way to another pocket.

In my previous post, my conclusion was not that the luck doesn't exist; in fact I acknowledge that it does. In all the scenarios we've mentioned there are identifiable instances of 'good luck' and 'bad luck'. My conclusion, though, was not to moan about it, which is a quite different matter.

[Qubit]

Luck, or the perception of it, is really to do with 2 things in games like snooker. 1) the assessment of the situation and what shot to play and the possible outcome/s of that shot. 2) the ability to execute 100% perfectly the shot selected from 1).

Most of us perceive luck as a combination of these 2, and very often our inability to execute 2) perfectly results in amplication of the uncertainty of the outcome of 1).

However, even if you assume 100% execution of any given shot from beginning to end, it remains impossible for a human to completely see the outcome of any given shot (sure 9/10 or even 99/100 for simple shots) but there are so many variables (table, cloth, balls, cushions etc etc etc)and outcomes that it is simply not possible to always know the end result every time. This is where the true (for me at least) definition of luck lies. So yes, there is such a thing as 'luck' if you like (even for the very best players), just probably not as most people understand it.

[thinsy]

Luck is real..........

LUCKY: To be lucky is to have fortune with something that was beyond your level of capabilities.

UNLUCKY: To be unlucky is to have misfortune with something that was beyond your level of capabilities.

CAPABILITY: This is the extent of your skills/knowledge.

Therefore, surely your level of good/bad luck is down to you. If you are not capable of hitting the ball correctly or not knowledgable enough to see the dangers of a particular shot then you can consider yourself unlucky......

However, if you strive to better your capabilities you will eventually be less unlucky........... technically!!!!

Well, I know what i mean....

[RocketRoy1983]

Now what if you missed the red you went for by a mile but the cue ball while going into the reds knocked a red in and when everything has come to rest, you have all colors on spots, reds well spread and perfect shape on black. Now is that "lucky" ?


As Ive previously stated some shots, including this, do border on the lucky/unlucky side. In answer to your above point what I would say is it wouldnt have happened like that if you had correctly hit the cue/object ball and potted the original red instead as you put it missed it "by a mile"

[noel]

Two little on-topic incidents to relate from last night.

Guilt
While playing my son I took on a long red shot from near the black spot into green corner... actually I missed Part A of the shot... it rattled in the jaws and rolled with just enough pace along the baulk cushion that it hung on the lip of the yellow pocket just long enough to make my son go mental when it did drop.
I was left with a lovely shot on the black and proceeded to run 6 plus a pink and an extra red.
Miles , flabbergasted, asked, "Dad, don't you feel guilty having run 56 off a fluke ?".
It has taken me years to be able to answer that question honestly, "NO".

Explosive Frustration
Before my son finished his homework and arrived at the club, I played a best-of-five against my mate Dan.
He loves snooker as do we all. He hates snooker as do we all.
While I'm plodding along halfway up the mountain, Dan is running to catch-up up the skree slope in skateboarding kicks. Even for someone like me, practicing for perfection, he clearly tries too hard.

Down 2-0 to me.
Close 3rd and, for me, deciding frame. He needed all the colours to win, which he very nearly does.
He potted a terrific pink far corner plus 3 rails for shape on black... he did get the three rails but was too far "on" black, fouling off into the end pocket.

There was a momentary calm.

His cue really was way too valuable to snap in half over his knee.
He screamed "You lucky *uck!" as he threw the shattered shaft (I salvaged the butt and joint) into the trash bin and fled out into the cold with his coat over his shoulder. I rang him up later and he was chill enough to ask about my Wooldridge. Whew!

Point taken is that it's one thing to lose a match but entirely another to lose "it",
and the only time I've ever seen that happen in snooker is due to perceived "luckiness" or "unluckiness".

=o)


Noel

[tallguy]

In my previous post, my conclusion was not that the luck doesn't exist; in fact I acknowledge that it does. In all the scenarios we've mentioned there are identifiable instances of 'good luck' and 'bad luck'. My conclusion, though, was not to moan about it, which is a quite different matter.

My thoughts exactly !

Luck, or the perception of it, is really to do with 2 things in games like snooker. 1) the assessment of the situation and what shot to play and the possible outcome/s of that shot. 2) the ability to execute 100% perfectly the shot selected from 1).

Most of us perceive luck as a combination of these 2, and very often our inability to execute 2) perfectly results in amplication of the uncertainty of the outcome of 1).

That's a very interesting way of looking at it.

I think the general opinion is that there is "good luck" and "bad luck". And I guess as your level of play goes up the number of situations you can put down to luck (especially bad) decreases as you are expected to predict as well as have better control of the outcome of each shot.

@Rocket : Mate, looks like we could keep arguing and still get no further
I think we both now know what the other thinks on the subject and don't see the need to labour our points any more.

[The Statman]

I think the general opinion is that there is "good luck" and "bad luck". And I guess as your level of play goes up the number of situations you can put down to luck (especially bad) decreases as you are expected to predict as well as have better control of the outcome of each shot.

Yes, true I would imagine.

But, although the 'lucky' or 'unlucky' incidents are fewer, the overall effect of each one is likely to be greater.

[Blondie]

Therefore, surely your level of good/bad luck is down to you. If you are not capable of hitting the ball correctly or not knowledgable enough to see the dangers of a particular shot then you can consider yourself unlucky......

However, if you strive to better your capabilities you will eventually be less unlucky........... technically!!!!

Well, I know what i mean....

.....agree, we make our own luck, & our capabilities play a big part.....

[+ I know what u mean, + what I mean, I think.....]

[RocketRoy1983]

I would agree that we make our own luck and as we get better we should become less and less "unluckier"

Let me ask you this: Would you all agree with me that it would be a BAD shot rather than unlucky if you broke off (From a standard right hand players point of view with right hand side) hit the reds but instead of coming to the left of the blue just went to the right of it and went in-off?

[thinsy]

I would agree that we make our own luck and as we get better we should become less and less "unluckier"

Let me ask you this: Would you all agree with me that it would be a BAD shot rather than unlucky if you broke off (From a standard right hand players point of view with right hand side) hit the reds but instead of coming to the left of the blue just went to the right of it and went in-off?

I agree.... it would be a bad shot. Let's face it, you are breaking off thereforeyou have the cueball in hand... no excuses, only bad shots