A Player does a correct shot (no foul!) and has lost the frame in that moment.

[sArnie]

I searched this forum and found no question comparable to this one in quite some time. If you know the answer to this question, because you've heard it before and remember the solution, stand back for those who'd like to give it a shot using good ol' brain.exe - just as I did. Remember brain.exe is not part of google.com

Situation: A player comes to the table and is able to win the frame. He does a correct shot (no foul!) and has lost the frame in that moment. What happened?

Ann.: I'm just qualifying as a referee and found rule questions too simple. Then I was given that question to ponder about. It took some time but I finally figured it out. Good luck!

[Templeton Peck]

Only the pink and black are left and he's more than 13 points down and potted the pink. That leaves him more than 7 points down with only the black left. Game over.

[RocketRoy1983]

Only answer I can think of too Templeton.

[Krypton]

Good guess, but wrong nevertheless.

To make the original situation a bit clearer:

When the Player comes to the table, he is able to win the frame WITHOUT snookers/foul points. So the task is to find a situation, in which you come to the table, CAN win with just the balls on the table, play a correct shot and lose because of that.

Keep on thinking, guyz

[sArnie]

Exactly so, Krypton. Clarification: When the player comes to the table he can still win within that break. After doing a correct shot he's still striker and yet cannot win anymore.

Templeton & RocketRoy: If he's back more than 13 points he cannot win by himself. He'd need foul points to win that frame. This is not what I meant.

[steedee]

43 remains.

player is 42 behind.

pots both reds in same shot leaving 40 with only a black and the colours remaining so needs 6 points in snookers to tie.

[sArnie]

In your solution, steedee, that striker might still snooker the other player and still win that frame. In the case I described the striker cannot win after that one correct shot.

[mushka]

I hope I won´t make a moron of myself.

Only the pink and black are left on the table. The player is rewarded a free ball when on the pink. He can therefore gain 19 (6+6+7) points. Lets assume he needs them to win the frame. He choses black as the free ball.
He hits it as a first ball, but accindentally pots the ball on (pink) in the process. He receives the 6 points, but since that the pink isn´t returned on the table, he can get then only the remaining 7 points for the black. And because he cannot try for snookers only with the black left, he loses.

[Krypton]

no moron, definitely.


BTW, it's completely pointless whether the pink falls in because of the missed black hitting it, by the cueball hitting it after contacting black (potting/or missing the black with that shot) and if the black follows into the pocket (free ball plus ball on potted = ONCE the points, black respotted).

and, as only black is left: the frame is over by definition.

You're absolutely right.

[mushka]

Yay, I got it right! :snooker:


Thank you for the quiz guys, it was a trully tricky question.

[sArnie]

Well done, mushka, in this great forum there are no morons.

For those, who are that smart, I'll grant all of you an extra round. While trying to find that correct solution, I found another one quite close to it:

Same situation: The player comes to the table, he can win the frame with the points on the table. He does one correct shot (no foul) and remains striker. After that shot he cannot win the frame anymore. This time there's no FREE BALL. What happened?

[The Statman]

The same situation, only one ball earlier: on the blue.

Given a free ball on the blue; 20 points behind. Take the free ball and pot both the free ball and the blue; now 15 points behind and on the pink.

Next shot, fluke the pink! (Not necessarily fluke, of course, but you wouldn't expect him to do it deliberately!)

[The Statman]

Note to self: read question first!

[Krypton]

with only the information given:
- no free ball involved
- can win with points on before (no snookers required!)
- cannot win afterwards (= only black left, gap of more than 7 points - otherwise you could still win with snookers)

either you come to the table with only black on it:
- you would have to be less than 7 behind, and pot the black scoring less than 7 - impossible
- shot correctly while in another way enlargen the point gap to something above 7 - impossible


or there is pink and black left, with a gap of less than 13.
- you don't foul to make the gap bigger (you told us 'correct shot').
- you score less than 13 taking both, or less than 6 removing pink only - impossible

without freeball, it is not possible to score more points than 7 (out of black only) or 13 for both balls.

with more balls on the table, it's impossible anyway, because theoretically you can win every frame with just pink and black left, getting a lot of snookers.


so:
some info must be missing, or it's just impossible. without a free ball situation (the only situation in which more than 13 points are on with 2 balls)

[sArnie]

No FREE BALL in this second question

Your suggestion, Statman, of course involves a FREE BALL and is a variation on that solution that solved the original question. As you noted yourself, there is explicitly no FREE BALL in this second question. I will leave this question open for an hour or two and start giving hints then.

EDIT: One hint to avoid misdirection:

- cannot win afterwards (= only black left, gap of more than 7 points - otherwise you could still win with snookers)

You cited "cannot win afterwards" from this new question. Your conclusion is wrong. The cited text "cannot win afterwards" is NOT the same as "has lost the frame in that moment".