Interesting 3-miss rule situation

[Bruce]

In yesterday's Masters semi-final between Maguire and O'Sullivan, an interesting situation arose in one of the frames regarding the 3-miss rule. Maguire had two foul-and-miss attempts on the Reds from a difficult position and was then given a warning because there was one Red on which he could have made direct full-ball contact IF it it had not been obstructed by other Reds. However because of how the Reds were positioned, he couldn't actually make direct full-ball contact with any Red! It was a close decision, and was based on the principle that you can't be snookered on a Red by other Reds, only by Colours.

I got the impression that Maguire hadn't realised he was in that situation until he was warned. This made me wonder something about the rules. Before making his earlier shots, could he have asked the referee to tell him whether the 3-miss rule would be invoked in that position? If he had known, it might have influenced his shot choice on the first or second attempts.

[davis_greatest]

He could have asked, but the referee should not answer.

[Odrl]

Eirian Williams had a good look before the first shot. I'm surprised that Maguire didn't realize exactly what Williams was checking.

I'm not sure what the rule is, but in my opinion, he should be able to ask the referee if he can see a ball full on.

[davis_greatest]

Section 5, rule 1(b)(i) "The referee shall not ... answer any question not authorised in these Rules" and nowhere do the Rules say he should answer the question you referred to.

In the same way, the referee will not tell a player if he can hit the edge of a red after an opponent's valid safety shot, nor will he say if a ball is just pottable, nor if a plant looks on, etc...

[DawRef]

NO.
Section 5 Rule 1 (a) (v)
Tell a player the colour of a ball if requested, and
(b) The referee shall not
(i) answer any question not authorised in these rules;
(ii) give any indication that a player is about to make a foul stroke ;
(iii)give any addvice or opinion on points affecting play' nor
(iv)answer any question regarding the difference in scores

Also
Section 3, Rule 8(d) - Touching Ball
If the cue-ball comes to rest touching or nearly touching a ball that is not on, the referee, if asked whether it is touching, will answer YES or NO. The striker must play away without disturbing it as above but must first hit a ball that is on.

Section 3 Rule 14 (e)(j) - Foul and a Miss
The next player may ask if the referee intends to replace balls other than the cue-ball in the event that he should ask for the stroke to be played from the original position, and the referee shall state his intention.

Other than above, the referee cannot advise the player.

[Odrl]

Fair enough, I suspected as much. If the referee can't advise you if a colour spots, he can't in this either, it's basically the same thing. But the consequences are more serious here. A situation could arise, where a player had a look, and couldn't be sure if the referee would come to the same conclusion.

[RaNeN]

What is the 3 miss rule?

[DawRef]

The 3 miss rule.

In a nut shell, if you can see full central ball that is on, or could be on, and fail to hit it 3 times, you will lose the frame. The referee will, or should, warn you after the second miss. Obviously this is after the referee has called 'foul and a miss' and the cue ball, and any other balls, have been replaced to their original position.

The actual rule is Section 3, Rule 14 (c) (ii)
"if asked to play again from the original position, the offender shall be warned by the referee that a third failure will result in the frame being awarded to his opponent.

Remember it has to be FULL CENTRAL CONTACT.

[The Statman]

NO.
Section 5 Rule 1 (a) (v)
Tell a player the colour of a ball if requested, and
(b) The referee shall not
(i) answer any question not authorised in these rules;
(ii) give any indication that a player is about to make a foul stroke ;
(iii)give any addvice or opinion on points affecting play' nor
(iv)answer any question regarding the difference in scores

Also
Section 3, Rule 8(d) - Touching Ball
If the cue-ball comes to rest touching or nearly touching a ball that is not on, the referee, if asked whether it is touching, will answer YES or NO. The striker must play away without disturbing it as above but must first hit a ball that is on.

Section 3 Rule 14 (e)(j) - Foul and a Miss
The next player may ask if the referee intends to replace balls other than the cue-ball in the event that he should ask for the stroke to be played from the original position, and the referee shall state his intention.

Other than above, the referee cannot advise the player.

There is one other point of play that the Rules specify the player may ask and the referee will answer YES or NO. That is when playing from the D, the player may ask the referee if he has placed the white correctly on/in the D. I have only ever seen this happen a couple of times, one a few days ago at Wembley.

[DawRef]

There is one other point of play that the Rules specify the player may ask and the referee will answer YES or NO. That is when playing from the D, the player may ask the referee if he has placed the white correctly on/in the D.

I originally wrote that in my answer, but forgot to include when I posted my edited reply. I actually asked that whilst playing in a local league match and the 'referee' said he couldn't answer, as it would be aiding me, and told me to play my shot. Although he wasn't a 'qualified referee', he still claimed to know all the rules, until I caught him out with that one.

[AntMac147]

I thought it was if you were able to see both sides of the ball on? Or is that just in a free ball situation?

[DawRef]

Yes. In order to have a free ball, you must be snookered on ALL balls that are or could be on. If the cue-ball cannot strike both extreme edges of the ball(s) on, after a foul, then the referee will call 'free ball'. Remember, though, you cannot be snookered on a red by another red, or a cushion.
Also, if you take the free ball option, you cannot roll up behind it, thus snookering the ball(s) on, unless only the pink and black balls remain.

[davis_greatest]

I thought it was if you were able to see both sides of the ball on? Or is that just in a free ball situation?

That is just for a free ball situation. As per the other posts above, the "3 misses" rule applies when central, full ball contact with the ball on is available (or, in the case of a red, would have been available were it not obstructed by another red or reds) - in this case, it does not matter that you may not be able to hit the extreme edge(s) of the ball on.