Just bought Jp mannock :-)

[snookerloopy32]

Recently got myself a jp mannock cue on ebay for a good price...
Its a burroughes and watts version with its mother of pearl badge intact,and is a secret join 2 piece cue in steamed pear,pics wil be added later.
I just wondered burroughes and watts versions worth more in value than the early ones?

[perpetualboredom]

I wouldn't have thought so given manock mannocks were produced for a very short time (hence rare) whereas B&W mannocks were produced for half a century or so.

[100-uper]

Recently got myself a jp mannock cue on ebay for a good price...
Its a burroughes and watts version with its mother of pearl badge intact,and is a secret join 2 piece cue in steamed pear,pics wil be added later.
I just wondered burroughes and watts versions worth more in value than the early ones?

I don't think you will find any Mannock cues that were not made by Burroughes & Watts.

I recall having some discussion with Andy Hunter on this subject some time ago. He believes that the earliest Mannock cues (c.1900) were made by JP himself. I am not so sure, and the fact that these were being retailed by him at this time is not evidence that he also made them. Perhaps we'll never know that one for sure, but he certainly had no background as an Artisan nor anything else which would suggest he had woodworking skills. The early Mannock's are about 2/3 the length of an ordinary cue and if you can find one you will be very lucky.

It was just after the first war (1921) that Mannock was "rescued" from financial difficulties by Burroughes & Watts and given a job as the manager at their Piccadilly matchroom. It seems likely that it was around this time that they also picked up the license to make and retail a cue carrying his name.

[JasonOwen]

You do add a lovely edge to the history of some of this stuff. its not just boring dates and facts but anecdotal snippets of information, almost like you were there. Absolutely love it, brings history alive.

Reminds me when I went to buy a cue off an old 80yr old fella, he gave me the tin case which had a big dent in it and went on to tell me how when he was 20 yrs old a dog had chased him on his bike and the cue and case had lodged in the spokes and turfed him off. The cue wasn't anything other than a plain butted cue but it added so much more history and character to it.

So was JP Mannock a carpenter, well he did design the cue so must have had some understanding and forward thinking of timbers?

[gazza147]

I have had a few Cracking Playing Ones Which is Quite Rare and I should Never have Sold the Last One Especially as I have never Seen a Better One Since.

I have been keeping my Eyes Open for the Right One!...lol

Gaz.

[jim evans]

i have 2 mannocks 1 pear which as been split 1 ash which i bought from india ,both have the b&watts stamp both are about 54-1/4 long and both have the anti grip mother of pearl ,the ash 1 as a rosewood front splice the pear 1 as a thurra burr,didnt the first ones have a different badge to the anti grip type

[100-uper]

You do add a lovely edge to the history of some of this stuff. its not just boring dates and facts but anecdotal snippets of information, almost like you were there. Absolutely love it, brings history alive.

Reminds me when I went to buy a cue off an old 80yr old fella, he gave me the tin case which had a big dent in it and went on to tell me how when he was 20 yrs old a dog had chased him on his bike and the cue and case had lodged in the spokes and turfed him off. The cue wasn't anything other than a plain butted cue but it added so much more history and character to it.

So was JP Mannock a carpenter, well he did design the cue so must have had some understanding and forward thinking of timbers?

Mannock was principally regarded as a billiards coach and was most famous in this capacity. He took out a number of patents, all connected with coaching, including the cue, which was specially designed to make the playing of the "masse" stroke easier. The features which allowed this were that it was quite short, it had a long section of parallel shaft, and the steamed pearwood shaft slid easily through the hand (hence "anti-grip") Bearing in mind he also designed and sold things like the "finger-stall" to aid bridging and which was made famous by Gilbert & Sullivan, it might also be thought that he was an expert metalworker.

I have a copy of Mannock's 1891 patent which looks nothing like the later multi-spliced beauties which were top-of-the-range in Burroughes & Watts catalogues for many years. If you can get hold of a copy of Mannock's book (1904) there are photos in there of him using the original design cue.

Just looking back at the article I co-wrote with Andy Hunter on this subject, Andy reckons that Burroughes & Watts took over the patent on the cue in 1900. I'm not sure where he got that date from, but it may be correct.

[Straight strike]

Very valuable history to be heard, cheers.

[snookerloopy32]

This is the end result after a good clean up new tip and oil :-)


http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...4/DSCN2318.jpg

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...4/DSCN2317.jpg

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...4/DSCN2316.jpg

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...4/DSCN2314.jpg

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...4/DSCN2313.jpg

[snookerloopy32]

[CueAntW147]

A nice cue, it's always hard to tell from pics really but i'm not sure the joint is original though, i wonder if its been replaced at some point in its life or made into a 2 piece later on or maybe even had a new top part of the shaft, along with a brass ferrule fitted.

[ADR147]

Mannock was principally regarded as a billiards coach and was most famous in this capacity. He took out a number of patents, all connected with coaching, including the cue, which was specially designed to make the playing of the "masse" stroke easier. The features which allowed this were that it was quite short, it had a long section of parallel shaft, and the steamed pearwood shaft slid easily through the hand (hence "anti-grip") Bearing in mind he also designed and sold things like the "finger-stall" to aid bridging and which was made famous by Gilbert & Sullivan, it might also be thought that he was an expert metalworker.

I have a copy of Mannock's 1891 patent which looks nothing like the later multi-spliced beauties which were top-of-the-range in Burroughes & Watts catalogues for many years. If you can get hold of a copy of Mannock's book (1904) there are photos in there of him using the original design cue.

Just looking back at the article I co-wrote with Andy Hunter on this subject, Andy reckons that Burroughes & Watts took over the patent on the cue in 1900. I'm not sure where he got that date from, but it may be correct.

i think i have read 1900 as well somewhere. for sure its about then give or take a year or two.

[snookerloopy32]

I understand that the shaft looks like 2 different pieces of wood...i thought that too...over time the lineup of the 2 pieces is out a bit ,the grain does match though when turned a bit,i heard that this type of join is called a invisible join or secret join,am interested if anyone has more info on this?
the ferule i agree most certainly been replaced at some point it measures 9mm after reading some info most would be around 10mm?
Am very happy with my purchase and it plays great and the balance is superb

[CueAntW147]

I wouldn't worry too much about the shaft as such, i've seen many old original Burroughes & Watts cues that have technically been a 1pc as such but the actual shafts butterfly spliced half way up the shaft, with 2 different pieces of wood, it was quite common back in the day, though people wouldn't stand that today, i've seen a few mannocks with butterfly spliced shafts.

As for the joint burroughes & watts offered a secret patent joint across all there range if a customer wanted one done,
it was offered on one cue in the first place ( i think it was the w.cook cue ) then offered across the range as & when requested.

Burroughes & Watts advertised as early as 1889 a Portable Billiard Cue that was a two piece jointed cue that also had a replaceable screw tip.

The actual joint on yours though doesn't look like the original ones i've seen, but that said we are still learning all the time about cues and maybe there's lots of things we've still not seen or even know all the facts about.

[100-uper]

Burroughes & Watts advertised as early as 1889 a Portable Billiard Cue that was a two piece jointed cue that also had a replaceable screw tip.

That 1889 advert also mentions that Mannock made "constant use" of a portable cue. Although advertising standards were not as stringent as they are now, it can be assumed that Mannock was paid for his endorsement, and the link with Burroughes & Watts at this date is interesting bearing in mind that his cue was patented two years later and I reckon that someone made them for him (albeit I might be alone in that opinion.)

I knew three local players who bought Mannock cues when they were still available in the 1950's. They all had horn ferrules when new, and they all broke off with constant play, the cues having to be shortened quite significantly. From this I assume that the horn ferrule was a weakness and many users would have experienced this problem.

Perhaps the cue experts can advise me on something. I understood that when pearwood is steamed it changes colour. Would this make it particularly difficult to fit a replacement shaft which had an exact colour match?