cue ferrules

[sanman]

Recently there has been much debate on ferrules
There have been claims to less throw experienced and to the ferrules minimising or reducing radial stresses. It’s good that people come up with new ideas and I for one am in full support of new ideas. Helps improve the equipment performance. However no matter how hard I have search on the net for scientific data supporting many of these claims I simply cannot find any. The issues with demonstrations are that they can be manipulated to show the intended results. What I am looking for is solid scientific evidence. Like the case where dimples on a golf ball actually help a golf ball travel twice the distance it normally would as opposed to a smooth golf ball. That is fact. There is scientific literature on why this happens. There are the Americans with their lightweight plastic ferrules claiming that it induces less throw. What I fail to understand is the science behind their reasoning. Most brass ferrules introduce about 1.5 grams of additional weight to the end of a ferule. I simply cannot comprehend how 1.5 grams is going to make such a big difference to a person’s play and to throw in particular. That’s less 1/3 of a per cent of the cues total weight. Can such a small difference in weight make such a big difference in performance? Where I am going with this post is simply to try and understand the reasoning behind all of the “innovations” if such they are. I did post a thread on what exactly is throw. I am trying to understand that phenomenon. Maybe then I can truly understand the logic in the claims by various manufacturers regarding these new ferrules. But based on what I have said regarding the brass ferrules even if lighter materials throw less, we are talking a difference of 1.5 grams that a traditional ferrule has over a ferrule of similar density to wood.
That is
1.5/500*100 …… 500 grams being approximately and average weight of cue.
= 0.3%
I remain sceptical. As TW said replacing the ferrule with a new type may not necessarily be the panacea one seeks.
Until I see further proof in terms of scientific evidence that these new ferrules actually work I am going to regard this very much as the emperor’s new clothes and trust my logical thinking. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if you feel that something works for you then by all means go for it. I am not shooting down anyone claims just speaking from a point of ignorance and what makes sense to me

[Gerry Armstrong]

If you don't understand the science behind it but want to, you have to go and study the science...

As for looking for research on the subject, I don't think that small/one man band cue makers are in the position to fund scientific research in to any new products they come up with. There isn't quite the same Billions of Pounds/Dollars/Yen etc. to be made from a new ferrule idea that is available to large Golf equipment manufacturers.

[sanman]

If you don't understand the science behind it but want to, you have to go and study the science...

As for looking for research on the subject, I don't think that small/one man band cue makers are in the position to fund scientific research in to any new products they come up with. There isn't quite the same Billions of Pounds/Dollars/Yen etc. to be made from a new ferrule idea that is available to large Golf equipment manufacturers.

Then claims made by whoever would be just that without solid proof would you not agree. One does not need to spend milllions or billions on ascertaining the facts. All i am saying is that try as I may, and I have the necessary tertiary level qualification to reduce the claims on the ferrule performances to a mathematical model if needs, be but i simply cannot try as I may. Is there something i am missing.

[Gerry Armstrong]

Not necessarily as I don't agree that people are automatically faking demonstrations i.e. not everyone who is selling something is at it. Customers are free to listen and experiment on their own and come to their own conclusions. I fail to see anything wrong with that. If others need science to back things up first then they are free to hold that view but it still doesn't make every salesman a snake oil salesman.

Not everything can be "proved" conclusively - the existence or non-existence of God being an obvious example. Nor should it be assumed that just because the science supports something today it is "fact", as tomorrow new science comes along and debunks everything we thought was fact up until this point e.g. sun revolving around the earth, smallest particle being a atom etc. that is a basic tenent of Science itself.

As for the specifics of low deflection ferrules themselves, whether they actually do what they say on the tin or not isn't that important to me. My take on it as a 41 year old who has been playing snooker since I was 10, I don't want a cue that throws "less" than I am used to. I have spent years and years and years learning to play with cues that "throw" the way I expect them to and I'm quite happy with that so don't see it as an "improvement" per se, unlike the Golf example where I can now drive the ball with the same Golf swing I've always had some 50-70 yards further than I could in my youth and stop the ball on the greens the way the pros do thanks to modern Golf technology.

[choice]

Recently there has been much debate on ferrules
There have been claims to less throw experienced and to the ferrules minimising or reducing radial stresses. It’s good that people come up with new ideas and I for one am in full support of new ideas. Helps improve the equipment performance. However no matter how hard I have search on the net for scientific data supporting many of these claims I simply cannot find any. The issues with demonstrations are that they can be manipulated to show the intended results. What I am looking for is solid scientific evidence. Like the case where dimples on a golf ball actually help a golf ball travel twice the distance it normally would as opposed to a smooth golf ball. That is fact. There is scientific literature on why this happens. There are the Americans with their lightweight plastic ferrules claiming that it induces less throw. What I fail to understand is the science behind their reasoning. Most brass ferrules introduce about 1.5 grams of additional weight to the end of a ferule. I simply cannot comprehend how 1.5 grams is going to make such a big difference to a person’s play and to throw in particular. That’s less 1/3 of a per cent of the cues total weight. Can such a small difference in weight make such a big difference in performance? Where I am going with this post is simply to try and understand the reasoning behind all of the “innovations” if such they are. I did post a thread on what exactly is throw. I am trying to understand that phenomenon. Maybe then I can truly understand the logic in the claims by various manufacturers regarding these new ferrules. But based on what I have said regarding the brass ferrules even if lighter materials throw less, we are talking a difference of 1.5 grams that a traditional ferrule has over a ferrule of similar density to wood.
That is
1.5/500*100 …… 500 grams being approximately and average weight of cue.
= 0.3%
I remain sceptical. As TW said replacing the ferrule with a new type may not necessarily be the panacea one seeks.
Until I see further proof in terms of scientific evidence that these new ferrules actually work I am going to regard this very much as the emperor’s new clothes and trust my logical thinking. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if you feel that something works for you then by all means go for it. I am not shooting down anyone claims just speaking from a point of ignorance and what makes sense to me

I agree great thread

[Gerry Armstrong]

Sanman, here is a link to some material on the subject which may be some of what you're looking for.

Disclaimer: I haven't read the material in any great depth nor am I claiming it is either correct or incorrect. Just thought you might enjoy the read as you seem to be interested in the subject.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html

You might also check out the Predator site as they built a machine to test their theories and new products and they have some info about it on there.

[sanman]

thanks Gerry

[Gerry Armstrong]

Lots of science/equations if you dig deeper on the site and the guy is a professor of Mechanical Engineering so it would be a reasonable hypothesis that his Maths is spot on, but I have no scientific evidence to back up my claim!!

[mrbluejay]

Just a comment around this subject and not necessarily aimed at you guys, but I am always surprised by the scepticism around new technology and even more so by the lack of will to explore new technology.

Take a sport such as golf, there are new and tweaked technologies coming out all the time, I appreciate a lot of this is driven b the manufacturers to maintain/improve sales, but the new data always shows theoretical improvements. I don't see why cue sports should not explore new ways of doing things, to me it's natural evolution.

Having said this, I am a gadget freak, so love trying new things. I have had 2 cues now fitted with Blackspin and really like it, tried countless tips and am always looking to try things, doesn't make me the next Jimmy, but if it adds 1 - 2% to my game, that is great.

[cueman]

My view on this is simple. Judd Trump at this moment in time probably possesses the most cue power in the game and the spin he gets on the cueball at times is crazy, yet he is doing this with a 1pc cue with a brass ferrule fitted.

If any of these new ferrules enabled you to play the shots that he does with the same amount of spin but with less effort then I would buy into the hype. However I don't believe we will see many, if any top pros converting to any of these new ferrule designs unless of course they are being paid to endorse the product. Ebdon is currently using one but he worked with Stamford on this so I count him out of this because he could well have a vested interest for all we know.

One thing could be proven just by taking a some footage from members who have bought these cues or the makers themselves and compare it with other cues fitted with a brass ferrule. I can see where Sanman is coming about seeing some proof, surely that should be the minimum to back up these claims!

[Gerry Armstrong]

Just a comment around this subject and not necessarily aimed at you guys, but I am always surprised by the scepticism around new technology and even more so by the lack of will to explore new technology.

Take a sport such as golf, there are new and tweaked technologies coming out all the time, I appreciate a lot of this is driven b the manufacturers to maintain/improve sales, but the new data always shows theoretical improvements. I don't see why cue sports should not explore new ways of doing things, to me it's natural evolution.

Having said this, I am a gadget freak, so love trying new things. I have had 2 cues now fitted with Blackspin and really like it, tried countless tips and am always looking to try things, doesn't make me the next Jimmy, but if it adds 1 - 2% to my game, that is great.

I agree - technology has certainly made Golf easier for me to play, the long game at least. The scoring part is still tricky but even there putters have alignment aids, better balance and feel etc.

On snooker, I too have tried just about every new tip that has come out to see if it's better. On the throw thing though, I don't see less throw being an improvement as such, just a difference. A ball flying farther or straighter at Golf can be reasonably defined as an improvement as most of us club golfers are generally trying to hit the ball straight and from the tee, as far as we can.

But I don't think cue ball deflection falls in to the same category. It's different but not better in my book. If anything it's worse as I have to re-learn shots I know very well all over again. I didn't have to re-learn my Golf swing when I switched to my current driver. All I had to do was grab the club, tee up a ball and take my normal swing. And lo and behold, thanks to the wonders of technology it's much easier to hit the ball properly than with clubs from years ago. No re-learning of anything required.

[trevs1]

Just a comment around this subject and not necessarily aimed at you guys, but I am always surprised by the scepticism around new technology and even more so by the lack of will to explore new technology.

Take a sport such as golf, there are new and tweaked technologies coming out all the time, I appreciate a lot of this is driven b the manufacturers to maintain/improve sales, but the new data always shows theoretical improvements. I don't see why cue sports should not explore new ways of doing things, to me it's natural evolution.

Having said this, I am a gadget freak, so love trying new things. I have had 2 cues now fitted with Blackspin and really like it, tried countless tips and am always looking to try things, doesn't make me the next Jimmy, but if it adds 1 - 2% to my game, that is great.

The bits in bold are why this or any other "new" idea will be at least "bought into" by some.

Much of what you'll read about this or that performance enhancing technology is marketing spiel, no more and no less.

As Sanman states in his original post, real conclusive scientific data is sorely lacking, and furthermore, pretty tricky to prove beyond doubt.

Great to see some critical thinking at last.

[trevs1]

My view on this is simple. Judd Trump at this moment in time probably possesses the most cue power in the game and the spin he gets on the cueball at times is crazy, yet he is doing this with a 1pc cue with a brass ferrule fitted.

If any of these new ferrules enabled you to play the shots that he does with the same amount of spin but with less effort then I would buy into the hype. However I don't believe we will see many, if any top pros converting to any of these new ferrule designs unless of course they are being paid to endorse the product. Ebdon is currently using one but he worked with Stamford on this so I count him out of this because he could well have a vested interest for all we know.

One thing could be proven just by taking a some footage from members who have bought these cues or the makers themselves and compare it with other cues fitted with a brass ferrule. I can see where Sanman is coming about seeing some proof, surely that should be the minimum to back up these claims!

I don't think for one moment Peter is using that cue because of some vested interest. He's got to be using it because he feels it gives him something that he wanted (whatever that may be) The thing is with the older and more established pro's is that they may feel a little jaded, and, over years of playing, occasionally look for something to reinvigorate their enthusiasm for playing. I know a few players who are fiddling with this or that ferrule, and to me, it looks like exactly that, fiddling. Why they are doing it who knows for sure, but, the measure of this new found interest in composite ferrules, or cored ferrule stuff is over the next few years. Then, and only then, once we see players reaching new levels of performance WITH cue fitted with them, can anyone take the whole concept seriously.

Watch this space.

My view is we'll be watching for a loooong while, with not much to see at the end of it.

[mrbluejay]

I don't think for one moment Peter is using that cue because of some vested interest. He's got to be using it because he feels it gives him something that he wanted (whatever that may be) The thing is with the older and more established pro's is that they may feel a little jaded, and, over years of playing, occasionally look for something to reinvigorate their enthusiasm for playing. I know a few players who are fiddling with this or that ferrule, and to me, it looks like exactly that, fiddling. Why they are doing it who knows for sure, but, the measure of this new found interest in composite ferrules, or cored ferrule stuff is over the next few years. Then, and only then, once we see players reaching new levels of performance WITH cue fitted with them, can anyone take the whole concept seriously.

Watch this space.

My view is we'll be watching for a loooong while, with not much to see at the end of it.

The jaded bit is bang on I think. So the placebo affect of trying something new/different, is a positive thing.

By buying so many different cues and tips etc. my interest and passion for the game has been reinvigorated, my skill/playing level has also improved, but that is down to hours on the table through reawakened interest.

[trevs1]

I agree - technology has certainly made Golf easier for me to play, the long game at least. The scoring part is still tricky but even there putters have alignment aids, better balance and feel etc.

On snooker, I too have tried just about every new tip that has come out to see if it's better. On the throw thing though, I don't see less throw being an improvement as such, just a difference. A ball flying farther or straighter at Golf can be reasonably defined as an improvement as most of us club golfers are generally trying to hit the ball straight and from the tee, as far as we can.

But I don't think cue ball deflection falls in to the same category. It's different but not better in my book. If anything it's worse as I have to re-learn shots I know very well all over again. I didn't have to re-learn my Golf swing when I switched to my current driver. All I had to do was grab the club, tee up a ball and take my normal swing. And lo and behold, thanks to the wonders of technology it's much easier to hit the ball properly than with clubs from years ago. No re-learning of anything required.

But there's nothing to "re-learn" with a different cue that maybe deflects the cueball less Gerry, as a players setup and alignment, if correct, is going to provide pretty consistent results. Snooker is all about straight lines, and so, a cue which allows the aim to remain on a straighter line (to the line of potting angle), without the need for any "extra" guesswork, has to be a winner. It will be very easy to adjust right over to something like that. The bad news is that cues in themselves are so massively variable, both in terms of shape and size, and even in density and stiffness of the shafts used within them, that to state that a given material in the ferrule of it is going to make a predictable and measurable improvement, would quite frankly be pretty optimistic at best and fairly stupid at worst.

As has been mentioned, it can be called "innovation" or "technology" but remove the mask and it's actually called marketing, only disguised as other more attractive words.