Timing

[itsnoteasy]

I dont know the technical side of timing but like CoachGavin said you know when you have timed a shot well, it feels completely different.

[Tiger800]

I'm going to be a bit controversial but I'm going to say I don't believe in timing. I do believe in accuracy and speed. If you hit the bottom of a cue ball at the correct point with a fast enough delivery. You'll screw the white without problem. You could use any technique you like but as long as you hit the white at the right point with the right speed. You'll screw back.



It has nothing to do with timing. Technique yes. Not timing.

Your right in the speed contact point dept. as I posted earlier thats all the cue ball knows, where and with how much force.
The timing part is a different issue, you can definitely feel when it's not right and I surmise that it is about the point along your stroke that the CB is struck.

[itsnoteasy]

Had a little think on this and wonder if timing is all about having your back arm vertical at the time of contact with the cue ball, if you take your forearm as a pendulum pivoting at the elbow, the back swing then the swing through, the optimum speed will be at the bottom of the swing,when the arm will be in the vertical position, if the arm is too far back the pendulum will not have reached its top speed and the contact point will be to early, and if the arm is too far forward the pendulum will have started to slow.

[Tiger800]

Had a little think on this and wonder if timing is all about having your back arm vertical at the time of contact with the cue ball, if you take your forearm as a pendulum pivoting at the elbow, the back swing then the swing through, the optimum speed will be at the bottom of the swing,when the arm will be in the vertical position, if the arm is too far back the pendulum will not have reached its top speed and the contact point will be to early, and if the arm is too far forward the pendulum will have started to slow.

This is my line of thinking also.
Dr Dave did some study on this aspect and posted the accel curve here. http://billiards.colostate.edu/threa...l#acceleration (this guy has done some great work for cuesports)
Basically accel stops at point of contact which in theory should be when your arm is at or about 90 vertical, I think theres a fine line here.
I was just working on this when I got home and shot some video, I will post it up later. the timing now feels in and out on every other shot, progress? maybe, trying not to get frustrated
Thanks for the input

[ace man]

This Dr. Dave fellow may not be worlds greatest player, but he has an actual degree in physics and knows his stuff. His slow motion stuff is worth seeing. One cannot argue, it definitely busts some myths.
However, we players still like to use very subjective terms like "timing", "acceleration", "follow through", "easy", "relaxed", "smooth"...and many others...even though they may not make much sense, certainly not to players who haven't spent a lot of time at the table. If we were machines, it would be simpler. You'd simply say, "hit the cueball 2.3mm below centre point, impact speed 1.67 metres per second, elevation 1.45 degrees" and that would be about it.
But we are not machines, and we cannot do that. I think you have to have some kind of consistent mental notes and imagery to play this game well. Most of our usual player's terms can NOT be explained in a rational manner. "Timing" is certainly one of those. You have to FEEL IT.

[Tiger800]

This Dr. Dave fellow may not be worlds greatest player, but he has an actual degree in physics and knows his stuff. His slow motion stuff is worth seeing. One cannot argue, it definitely busts some myths.
However, we players still like to use very subjective terms like "timing", "acceleration", "follow through", "easy", "relaxed", "smooth"...and many others...even though they may not make much sense, certainly not to players who haven't spent a lot of time at the table. If we were machines, it would be simpler. You'd simply say, "hit the cueball 2.3mm below centre point, impact speed 1.67 metres per second, elevation 1.45 degrees" and that would be about it.
But we are not machines, and we cannot do that. I think you have to have some kind of consistent mental notes and imagery to play this game well. Most of our usual player's terms can NOT be explained in a rational manner. "Timing" is certainly one of those. You have to FEEL IT.

I agree, what he has done is explained the physics of game which to me gives much clearer understanding of what is actually happening through the process of making a shot.
If you don't understand the physics it becomes more difficult to explain why certain reactions occur and if your trying to diagnose a problem you may be wasting your time looking at the wrong elements.

Ever wonder why Alex Higgins was able to play and generate the reactions the way he did with the cue in the light at the end of the stroke and the shoulder flying round, well it's all clear now, none of that mattered! what happens 1/1000 after you hit the ball means nothing and how you deliver the cue to point X Y means nothing, all that matters is speed, point of contact and angle. Now that you know these things when your trying to help a player you can better look at what may be the problem because you understand cause and effect. I think his stuff should be part of the coaching curriculum.

Timing I suppose timing has to fall under the human column "Feel", it feels like the brain is not getting what it expects and a machine wouldn't really care about that.

[itsnoteasy]

Good timing is just keeping the tip touching the cue ball on contact for as long as possible. To do this the tip needs to accelerate as the white starts its forward motion. The longer amount of time the tip is contacting the cue ball the better the cue ball follows the line of aim and the more spin is generated so two big positives. This is why as you improve you will 'feel' when you have timed a shot well because you can feel that the tip spends a longer amount of time pushing through the white.

Another idea I have had on this . If has been said contact time,with good timing, has been proven not to increase but coaches and good players say it does it might be tip grip, by this I mean when we time the ball poorly(not striking the cue ball at optimum speed) the grip and reaction the ball gets off the tip and cue must be affected(along with the tip not hitting the cue ball where we were aiming)but when cued perfect the tip hits exactly the right spot,the speed is at the optimum ,it may then produce more grip and more reaction on the cue ball which could be felt through the cue giving an impression that the tip has been in contact with the ball for longer.

[Tiger800]

There also another variable in the timing equation to consider and that is the vision.The process of shifting your eyes from CB to OB to Pocket or whatever your eye pattern is, if this is not kept consistent it can upset the timing of the whole sequence.

[nrage]

There also another variable in the timing equation to consider and that is the vision.The process of shifting your eyes from CB to OB to Pocket or whatever your eye pattern is, if this is not kept consistent it can upset the timing of the whole sequence.

Some would argue that you're talking about rhythm here

[itsnoteasy]

There also another variable in the timing equation to consider and that is the vision.The process of shifting your eyes from CB to OB to Pocket or whatever your eye pattern is, if this is not kept consistent it can upset the timing of the whole sequence.

Not sure if this is true as its possible to time a shot nicely with your eyes shut.

[j6uk]

Yes if there's anything out in 'the setup' this could lead to miss timing the shot, and I would load everything up until releasing the elbow as 'the setup'.

There also another variable in the timing equation to consider and that is the vision.The process of shifting your eyes from CB to OB to Pocket or whatever your eye pattern is, if this is not kept consistent it can upset the timing of the whole sequence.

[Tiger800]

What a difference a day makes, shot a bunch of video over the last 2 days and picked up a couple things. One was too fast on the back swing and little bit of raising my head up just before the back swing. I focused on these 2 points, slowing down the cue a bit and keeping the head down, better but still not right. I moved my grip back a little bit more, probably the missing 1/2" and started hitting the ball much crisper, my eye pattern seems to have settled in better too.
I am pretty certain the timing is that point along the stroke that we are used to making contact, not sure that's the whole picture but to me it's a key element.

It's also possible the first 2 points are a product of struggling, you start to get anxious and putting more effort into the cue creating more tension in the arm and it can snowball on you. A lesson here on practice time, keep the sessions short, 20 minutes or so on any one thing otherwise it can become unproductive.

[Sidd]

That thing called timing

Consider Cricket to understand the concept, as timing is an integral part of batting better when playing cricket. When a batsman strikes sweetly (I have played myself so i know this for sure from experience) he notices as if the ball has not even hit the bat or was not having any weight. He does little effort and the ball just races to the boundry without much effort. Its such a nice feeling for a batsman.

Consider batting; when the ball comes near the bat you need to hit it at the right moment if you do you get the result (less effort great shot) now if you are to hit it a fraction earlier what would happen- the ball would not even go outside the circle and if you hit it a fraction later- it might be edged and caught and would not have the velocity required in it. The reason is that the batsman has to hit the ball at its max acceleration.

the same is with snooker: the ball is at rest but you are striking with the cue in motion... once you hit it when your cue is in full swing or max acceleration you get it accurate and with more reaction with less effort...

Also the real monster i have noticed in this regard is tightening of the grip before the strike. If that happens no matter how good you time tightening will destroy that timing. So the key is nice smooth relax grip throughout the stroke and another key to better timing is the PAUSE factor... You need ot have both the front and back pause to get better timing. front pause helps you in getting ready to swing back straight and backpause (very important) helps you in putting the moving cue to rest and then start from rest ot motion this brings that sweetness we all talk about... otherwise the cue action will remain jerky. now when that happens and you accelerate towards the white and hit it will full acceleration and go through the white the tip makes longer contact with white and hence you achieve timing.

Hope this helps

[Tiger800]

Consider Cricket to understand the concept, as timing is an integral part of batting better when playing cricket. When a batsman strikes sweetly (I have played myself so i know this for sure from experience) he notices as if the ball has not even hit the bat or was not having any weight. He does little effort and the ball just races to the boundry without much effort. Its such a nice feeling for a batsman.

Consider batting; when the ball comes near the bat you need to hit it at the right moment if you do you get the result (less effort great shot) now if you are to hit it a fraction earlier what would happen- the ball would not even go outside the circle and if you hit it a fraction later- it might be edged and caught and would not have the velocity required in it. The reason is that the batsman has to hit the ball at its max acceleration.

the same is with snooker: the ball is at rest but you are striking with the cue in motion... once you hit it when your cue is in full swing or max acceleration you get it accurate and with more reaction with less effort...

Also the real monster i have noticed in this regard is tightening of the grip before the strike. If that happens no matter how good you time tightening will destroy that timing. So the key is nice smooth relax grip throughout the stroke and another key to better timing is the PAUSE factor... You need ot have both the front and back pause to get better timing. front pause helps you in getting ready to swing back straight and backpause (very important) helps you in putting the moving cue to rest and then start from rest ot motion this brings that sweetness we all talk about... otherwise the cue action will remain jerky. now when that happens and you accelerate towards the white and hit it will full acceleration and go through the white the tip makes longer contact with white and hence you achieve timing.

Hope this helps

I think you are on the right track in some respect as to the effects of certain elements. My own opinion is these elements are about muscle control and reactions. Relaxed muscles react faster and smoother, ask any tennis coach about how to achieve racket head speed. The pauses and grip tightening are part of the muscle control.
As for the contact time being affected, it's simply not possible (see my earlier post for a link to the science)

I think that knowing this helps understand why we accelerate and why we follow through, it is simply the best way to control the muscles and achieve a smooth straight stroke and accurate contact. To slow down a car it's best to use the brakes which are progressive and not a brick wall. Same physics apply to your stroke, any tension that is required to decel can cause the cue to not go through straight. I think that the point of CB contact is at the point along your stroke where you expect it but also where the acceleration flattens out.

Cheers

[vmax4steve]

When a shot is perfectly timed the cue reaches its maximum speed at the moment of the strike when the eyes are focussed on the contact point of the object ball. It all happens in a split second, a relaxed split second where no anxiety is felt and nothing is forced.

The eyes are very important in the rhythm of the stroke and the timing of the shot.