Handicap systems

[bluenose1940]

Hi folks, is anyone able to tell me what handicap systems are used by many of the normal run of the mill clubs. I don't doubt that there are probably quite a number of different systems in operation.

Any guidance on this will be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[the lone wolf]

Away with handicap systems!
If you want to play or set up a league then just go for it and forget handicap systems...
They destroy the beautiful game.

[Nifty50]

Have to disagree Lone Wolf. Think there is a place for handicap tournaments. My local club has a weekly handicap tournament. Lots of players of varying standards turn up to play and everyone has a chance of winning if they play well. Without the handicaps the good players would win every week and the poorer players would just stop coming along. It's a just for fun night. I agree if it's a tournament for top amateurs then no handicap.
I liken it to the Sunday morning handicap tournament at a lot of Golf Clubs. Even the club numptie has a chance to win if he plays well.

[bluenose1940]

What I am trying to arrive at here is, how do clubs/leagues etc. decide on what handicap (if any) to apply to a player. I have heard locally that some players have to give as much as 50 or 60 points away when playing in competitions. I know (I think) that in golf, a persons handicap is based on their score cards submitted from playing a given number of rounds but, I can't get my head around how this would apply in snooker. In golf, your opponent can't put you in trouble, you can only do that yourself by playing bad shots. You can obviously play bad shots yourself in snooker but, your opponent can also put you in trouble by denying you any potting opportunities. You then lose the frame without having had a single opportunity to score any points.

[snookerdad]

Initial handicaps are always difficult. It's very much educated guesswork. One way is to have some general guidelines.

In one of our weekly handicapped competitions, if a player is completely unknown to us (which is rare), we could allocate a -30 handicap if his high break was a century, scratch of it was 50 and +30 if it was 30.

The important thing is that handicaps change after each event depending on results. And it must be a balanced system, ie, the number of points given back equals the number of points taken away in any one tournament.

As a simple example, if you play a one-frame round-robin, you'd lose one point off your handicap for each frame won and be given one point back for each frame you lose.

If competitions are regular, the handicaps soon work themselves out.

One thing to bear in mind is what your objective is. If it's to create a level playing field, over a long period, players should win roughly half their matches and lose half their matches. This can be quite hard for a good player to accept.

Tim Dunkley (World Snooker coach)

[Nifty50]

Agree with Tim. Difficult to get it right from the start but over time it will sort itself out although you always will have people complain once they've lost.
In my club everyone knows who the good and bad players are so its relatively easy to slot someone in with a handicap.
The century break players would be around scratch and the 20 break players would be around +50.
Our Sunday nite tournaments have been running for many years and there's a fair mix of low and high handicappers who have won it. You just need to play well! If you're a scratch player giving away 50 you need to play well or you'll lose.
We have a rule that if you win the tournament you get cut for the following week. Forces you to up your game.

[Shockerz]

The league we play in is generally scratch handicaps but we run a few team comps that have handicaps based on league positions which isn't exactly accurate because of individual players but it doesn't end up too far off.

I've been pushing for a singles handicap and a pairs handicap for a few years and finally got the go ahead for last year and I did the handicaps.

There were many suggestions but I approached it like this.

I did an initial ranking table based on win percentage (over 5 matches) from the previous year.
I looked at the best and worst players and agreed with the committee what the best player would have to give the worst player e.g. 50
From memory, I then went down the win percentages allocating a point start for each 2%
All players under 5 matches were discussed and allocated to someone of equal ability (Their team Captains were party to the conversation.
Some players were red flagged e.g. never played but come from another league, previously injured or someone just starting but getting rapidly better over the summer etc.

The point was to ensure there were no major surprises.

Winner's were docked 10 points for winning and runner's up 5 points in the first year.

There were major moans when it went out and was told it wouldn't work. We tracked the black and pink ball games and we had a massive amount there with many 2-1 matches and re spots so not too far off the mark. We had 1 iffy handicap by one of the committee members but luckily he drew him and got stuffed which made me chuckle and the guy then when he was drawn on a poor table.

This year we have have still used the previous years wins/losses percentage as it is a recent snapshot (rather than combining both years).

The 2 comps have now already become the most entered as the lesser players certainly wouldn't enter the scratch ones (which we still run).

We also monitored the last eight of each comp last year and this ear to make sure the mix of low and high handicap players wasn't out of balance and we may even make the handicaps slightly larger even though a couple of second division players took the pairs title (first thing they'd ever won).

Now we have scratch and handicap comps our total entries has been really successful and most of the scratch players enter the handicap as well.

[inevermissblue]

Don't bother yourself with handicaps. They are difficult to manage and can easily be abused. I can't understand why players who need start, get entered into main draws. Inevitably they end up in the plate as 1st round losers. They also continue with a start. Which I find hilarious.
Handicaps fail to help a player improve. They become dependent on it and worst still seek to increase it.
It would be better to have 2 comps. A main draw that consists of players off scratch. Then a plate comp. Made up of former handicap players. Only they should play off scratch too. Against like ability opposition. Eventually this should inspire them to ditch the plate comp and brave the main. Minus the stabilisers!!!

[Nifty50]

Don't bother yourself with handicaps. They are difficult to manage and can easily be abused. I can't understand why players who need start, get entered into main draws. Inevitably they end up in the plate as 1st round losers. They also continue with a start. Which I find hilarious.
Handicaps fail to help a player improve. They become dependent on it and worst still seek to increase it.
It would be better to have 2 comps. A main draw that consists of players off scratch. Then a plate comp. Made up of former handicap players. Only they should play off scratch too. Against like ability opposition. Eventually this should inspire them to ditch the plate comp and brave the main. Minus the stabilisers!!!

My local league has been running since about 1969. Around 250 regular players who play off a handicap based on their last seasons performance. Works very well. Handicap Committee review handicaps to keep things fair. You get the odd moan generally from someone who has lost but I would say 99% of folk are happy with the system and try hard to improve year on year.
I would stress that the league is for enthusiastic amateurs looking for a social night out. Anyone who is looking for serious scratch snooker has the option to join the Amateur Main Tour. Lots of great players and a few ex pros.

[the lone wolf]

Don't bother yourself with handicaps. They are difficult to manage and can easily be abused. I can't understand why players who need start, get entered into main draws. Inevitably they end up in the plate as 1st round losers. They also continue with a start. Which I find hilarious.
Handicaps fail to help a player improve. They become dependent on it and worst still seek to increase it.
It would be better to have 2 comps. A main draw that consists of players off scratch. Then a plate comp. Made up of former handicap players. Only they should play off scratch too. Against like ability opposition. Eventually this should inspire them to ditch the plate comp and brave the main. Minus the stabilisers!!!

^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^

[magicman]

It made me laugh when you said players have to give as many as 50/60!. In our hcap comps, the strongest player is currently on - 27 with the weakest on +93 so exactly double your 'extreme' example of 60.

In our tournaments, winners lose 7 off their hcap, r/up 5, Sf lose 3, QF zero, last 16 gain 2 points on their hcap, last 32 gain 3. The system ensures players find their natural level, with internationals and semi-pros in the minuses, century breakers ranging from scratch to +35, 50 to 99 high breakers from +21 to +63 and the beginners and talently challenged from +63 to +93.

[DeanH]

My local league has been running since about 1969. Around 250 regular players who play off a handicap based on their last seasons performance. Works very well. Handicap Committee review handicaps to keep things fair. You get the odd moan generally from someone who has lost but I would say 99% of folk are happy with the system and try hard to improve year on year.
I would stress that the league is for enthusiastic amateurs looking for a social night out. Anyone who is looking for serious scratch snooker has the option to join the Amateur Main Tour. Lots of great players and a few ex pros.

What is the range of the points for/against?
what does a newbie get?

[Nifty50]

What is the range of the points for/against?
what does a newbie get?

Max is +45. Newbies start at +25 unless there's infornation to suggest otherwise. Newbies get re-assessed at Xmas break so long as they've played at least 5 matches. There's NO lower range. Players are encouraged to get as low as they can go. We have an ex-pro who currently sits at -65. Also have very good young prospect who will be at Q School this year off -45. I would guess that 50% of the players are in the -25 to +25 range. 50 spread.
The way the matches are structured players are usually matched up with opponents of similar handicaps ie, lowest handicap in Team 1 plays lowest handicap in Team 2.
As I said in my other post. System been around for yonks and works well. It does take a fair amount of admin recording individual results each week and recording the info on spreadsheets. The guy doing this does a fantastic job.

[Shockerz]

It made me laugh when you said players have to give as many as 50/60!. In our hcap comps, the strongest player is currently on - 27 with the weakest on +93 so exactly double your 'extreme' example of 60.

In our tournaments, winners lose 7 off their hcap, r/up 5, Sf lose 3, QF zero, last 16 gain 2 points on their hcap, last 32 gain 3. The system ensures players find their natural level, with internationals and semi-pros in the minuses, century breakers ranging from scratch to +35, 50 to 99 high breakers from +21 to +63 and the beginners and talently challenged from +63 to +93.

Hi Magicman

I guess the handicap systems reflect such a high range of difference in your system as you have as you said, "internationals and semi-pros in the minuses."

No internationals or semi pro's in this league!

[bluenose1940]

Thank you for your valued input folks, very much appreciated and plenty of food for thought. My club has a meeting of the handicap committee arranged for early May, at which time they are considering a restructure of the system. It will be interesting to see what they come up with.