What penalty points?

[Bigmeek]

My opponent pots a red and is faced with an easy "over the bag" BROWN or a more difficult "hampered cuing" PINK.
He thinks about it and gets down to play the pink. Addresses the cue ball and has a few practice feathers. Before striking cue ball his finger of bridge hand touches another red. Foul and six away I call out!
My opponent claims that as he did not nominate pink it is only four away. He says he could have changed his mind and gone for the easy brown. Fair point I suppose but in my mind he had clearly decided on pink.
Ruling please.

[Souwester]

The rules provide for a penalty of SEVEN points where a foul is potted before nominating a colour:

(d) A penalty of seven points is incurred if the striker

(i) uses a ball off the table for any purpose,
(ii) uses any object to measure gaps or distance,
(iii) plays at Reds, or a free ball followed by a Red, in successive strokes,
(iv) uses any ball other than White as the cue-ball for any stroke once the frame has started,
(v) fails to declare which ball he is on when requested to do so by the referee, or
(vi) after potting a Red or free ball nominated as a Red, commits a foul before nominating a colour.

A player may nominate by indication or declaration:

12. Nominated ball

(a) A Nominated ball is the object ball which the striker declares, or indicates to the satisfaction of the referee, he undertakes to hit with the first impact of the cue-ball.


Therefore, if your opponent has got down and starts aiming towards the pink then that amounts to indication as to the ball he has nominated and I think the six-point penalty is in order. Aiming at a ball amounts to indication. (Declaration is a verbal statement as to which ball is nominated).

By the same token, if a player is faced with black and pink on their spots and a yellow hanging over the pocket at the other end of the table and he commits a foul whilst getting the half butt out and placing it on the table as if to play the yellow, then the referee would call foul with a four point penalty, because by getting the half butt out the player has effectively indicated that he will be playing towards the yellow.

If a referee is unsure as to which ball a player has nominated he should ask him to declare. He cannot foul the player for hitting a different ball unless the player has failed to declare when asked to.

[tcollick]

ruling = cheating

In the case where there's no referee, fair play from both players is required.

Otherwise a player would have to nominate a colour every time he plays one so that this situation doesn't arise (due to there not being an impartial referee there to make the judgement call). Obviously this would be a ridiculous situation. Having to nominate a easy colour off its spot for example. So it comes down to honesty and playing in the spirit of the game.

You can't prove he was going for the pink so there's not much you can do if theres no ref there. After the event, you could make him nominate his colour every time he played a "not so obvious one" as a wind up, but thats not exactly in the spirit of the game either! So I would've just let it go and made sure I didn't lose the frame by 1 point. I hope you didn't

[APK]

tcollick,

What you may have missed is that you DO nominate a colour every time you play one.

You can nominate in 2 ways, declaration and direction.
A striker may verbally declare which ball he is 'on' or if the referee asks, he MUST declare.
Also every time you line up to play your shot, get down to the table and start feathering, you ARE nominating by direction.

In this case the player cannot possibly have been going for a different ball because of the direction of cueing.
If the referee is not sure which ball a striker is 'on', he must ask the striker to declare.
It stops a lot of arguments.

That all said, this is a game played mostly by sporting people who will call a foul on themselves. Long may that continue.

[Bigmeek]

Thanks guys. Souwester's rule (d) (vi) is very interesting. I didn't know that one. I can't say that I have ever seen 7 points awarded in such a situation.
Looks like I was right to claim a six point penalty. Didn't much effect the outcome of the frame. I hammered him hee hee!!
Thank goodness for sportsmanship.

[Souwester]

Thanks guys. Souwester's rule (d) (vi) is very interesting. I didn't know that one. I can't say that I have ever seen 7 points awarded in such a situation.

It's most likely to be awarded when, after potting a red, the player picks up a rest and it touches a ball, before he's given any indication as to what ball he's on (a black or yellow might both be in the same general direction for which he'd require the rest); or he drops his chalk on the table after hsi shot on the red has ended but before he's even thought about what colour to play.

[tcollick]

Good point APK. But if someone is obviously did not go for the ball he claims to have been going for, then it leads to a farcical situation where the opponent has to ask every time.

[jrc750]

It's most likely to be awarded when...... he drops his chalk on the table after his shot on the red has ended but before he's even thought about what colour to play.

Do you mean dropping the chalk on the table is a foul full stop ?? OR only if it hits a ball

[Souwester]

Do you mean dropping the chalk on the table is a foul full stop ?? OR only if it hits a ball

Sorry, my brain was working faster than my fingers were typing: yes, I did mean that the chalk would have had to touch one of the balls to cause a foul.

[jrc750]

Thanks for clearing that up

[Bigmeek]

It's most likely to be awarded when, after potting a red, the player picks up a rest and it touches a ball, before he's given any indication as to what ball he's on (a black or yellow might both be in the same general direction for which he'd require the rest); or he drops his chalk on the table after hsi shot on the red has ended but before he's even thought about what colour to play.

Thanks Souwester thats a good example. I would normally only claim 4 for that but reading the rules you're correct. Seven away!! I'm going to make myself popular next time I play my mate!!

[northerner]

What if he pots a red and leaves himself a choice of yellow or green in order to come back up the table to the pack - it's clear enough what he's going to do next although he hasn't actually indicated other than by the positional shot he just played. Then he drops his chalk on the table and hits a red with it. Bit harsh to penalize seven even though he hasn't indicated by aiming or speaking?

[Bigmeek]

What if he pots a red and leaves himself a choice of yellow or green in order to come back up the table to the pack - it's clear enough what he's going to do next although he hasn't actually indicated other than by the positional shot he just played. Then he drops his chalk on the table and hits a red with it. Bit harsh to penalize seven even though he hasn't indicated by aiming or speaking?

northerner Was thinking it was a bit unfair myself. Particularly if, after potting a red, the blue pink and black were not potable from where the white ended up. I think common sense would prevail and the ref would award four points.

[Souwester]

northerner Was thinking it was a bit unfair myself. Particularly if, after potting a red, the blue pink and black were not potable from where the white ended up. I think common sense would prevail and the ref would award four points.

Indeed this *IS* one of those instances where the referee should exercise his judgment and call an appropriate penalty, and in the case quoted then it should be a four point penalty.

The basic point is that if there is any ambiguity as to which colour is being played, then it's the highest value concerned. Remember though, that, once down on the shot, there can be no ambiguity because the referee should ask the striker to verbally nominate.

[The Statman]

Indeed this *IS* one of those instances where the referee should exercise his judgment and call an appropriate penalty, and in the case quoted then it should be a four point penalty.

The basic point is that if there is any ambiguity as to which colour is being played, then it's the highest value concerned. Remember though, that, once down on the shot, there can be no ambiguity because the referee should ask the striker to verbally nominate.

Fair enough, but the rule does say 7 for fouling before nominating colour.

Once he's got down and faced a certain direction, say towards general direction of blue or yellow, and he fouls just as you are about to ask him to declare, I would agree to penalise 5 points because he has essentially nominated that he isn't going for black or pink - but not confirmed whether blue or yellow.

But, if he's walking round the table or putting the rest away and fouls before either saying or playing in the direction of a particular colour, you surely have to award 7 for fouling before nominating - even if the yellow is the only ball he can see.

Rather like the foul 7 for playing at consecutive reds, you can't just say we'll call it 6 because he couldn't have hit the black if he'd wanted to.