touching balls

[blueboy41]

w
while playing a league match last night the
white ended up between a red and the pink
touching both balls . i played away from red
and the pink moved but the red did not move.
the balls where in a straight line across the table
side to side was it a foul.

[The Statman]

You don't say whether ball on was red or pink (or something else entirely), but whichever ball was on, you have committed a push shot by playing 'into' the pink when touching it. This is a foul.

I think it may be only 4 points (if you were on the red) since you are also adjudged to have hit the red so you did actually hit the ball on first in the eyes of the Rules. (I need to think this through a bit more though!)

If pink or any other colour was the ball on, it's a foul of 6; but 7 obviously if black was ball on.

[nrage]

I am not a referee but..

[The rules]

8. Touching Ball
(a) If the cue-ball comes to rest touching another ball or balls that are, or could be, on, the referee shall state TOUCHING BALL and indicate which ball or balls on the cue-ball is touching.
(b) When a touching ball has been called, the striker must play the cue-ball away from that ball without moving it or it is a push stroke.
(c) Providing the striker does not cause the object ball to move, there shall be no penalty if:
(i) the ball is on,
(ii) the ball could be on and the striker declares he is on it, or
(ii) the ball could be on and the striker declares, and first hits, another ball that could be on.
(d) If the cue-ball comes to rest touching or nearly touching a ball that is not on, the referee, if asked whether it is touching, will answer YES or NO. The striker must play away without disturbing it as above but must first hit a ball that is on.
(e) When the cue-ball is touching both a ball on and a ball not on, the referee shall only indicate the ball on as touching. If the striker should ask the referee whether the cue-ball is also touching the ball not on, he is entitled to be told.
(f) If the referee is satisfied that any movement of a touching ball at the moment of striking was not caused by the striker, he will not call a foul.
(g) If a stationary object ball, not touching the cue-ball when examined by the referee, is later seen to be in contact with the cue-ball before a stroke has been made, the balls shall be repositioned by the referee to his satisfaction.

I would say that all the rules above, except (g) apply to your situation.

Rule (e) applies in general, rules (a),(b), and (c) specifically to/for the red and rule (d) specifically for the pink.

In short you have to play away from both balls, and cause neither of them to move to avoid fouling.

So, if the pink moved it was a foul.

[Souwester]

I think it may be only 4 points (if you were on the red) since you are also adjudged to have hit the red so you did actually hit the ball on first in the eyes of the Rules. (I need to think this through a bit more though!).

Wrong, it would be 6 points regardless. the penalty for making a push stroke comes within Para (b) of rule 12 - 'the value of the ball on or ball concerned, whichever is higher'. The pink is being pushed, so therefore 6 points, being the higher of the two values.

(b) value of the ball on or ball concerned, whichever is higher, by
(i) striking when any ball is not at rest,
(ii) striking before the referee has completed the spotting of a colour,
(iii) causing a ball not on to enter a pocket,
(iv) causing the cue-ball to first hit a ball not on,
(v) making a push stroke
(vi) touching a ball in play, other than the cue-ball with the tip of the cue as a stroke is made, or
(vii) causing a ball to be forced off the table.

[nrage]

I assumed red was the ball on, from "i played away from red"

[nrage]

Is it definitely a push shot though?

-------------
18. Push Stroke
A push stroke is made when the tip of the cue remains in contact with the cue-ball
(a) after the cue-ball has commenced its forward motion, or
(b) as the cue-ball makes contact with an object ball except, where the cue-ball and an object ball are almost touching, it shall not be deemed a push stroke if the cue-ball hits a very fine edge of the object ball.
-------------

The 'almost touching' part of that suggests the exception doesn't apply and it is a push.. but I wonder.

[The Statman]

Wrong, it would be 6 points regardless. the penalty for making a push stroke comes within Para (b) of rule 12 - 'the value of the ball on or ball concerned, whichever is higher'. The pink is being pushed, so therefore 6 points, being the higher of the two values.

OK thanks - I didn't have access to the rule book so wasn't certain.

[Souwester]

Is it definitely a push shot though?

-------------
18. Push Stroke
A push stroke is made when the tip of the cue remains in contact with the cue-ball
(a) after the cue-ball has commenced its forward motion, or
(b) as the cue-ball makes contact with an object ball except, where the cue-ball and an object ball are almost touching, it shall not be deemed a push stroke if the cue-ball hits a very fine edge of the object ball.
-------------

The 'almost touching' part of that suggests the exception doesn't apply and it is a push.. but I wonder.

YES it is a push stroke, because, per the OP, the cue ball WAS touching both red and pink. If either were to move then it would be a push stroke because part (a) of the rule you quote would apply. Part (b) can only apply where the balls are very close but NOT touching.

The only exception would be if the referee was satisfied that any movement of the object ball was entirely due to defects of the table, eg a ball rolling back onto its spot, after the cue ball, which has been 'propping it up' is played away from it. If the referee is satisfied that the cue ball has indeed been played away from the touching ball then it won't be called as a foul.

[Terry Davidson]

If we assume ball on was the red and the 3 balls were in an EXACT straight line then the player should have been able to play away from BOTH balls without moving either (barring defects in the cloth).

However, if these 3 balls were in anything other than that exact straight line then the player has to shoot away to the side of the table which allows him to do so without moving either ball.

This is a very rare occurance but I would say if the cueball was frozen on both red and pink and the player over compensated when playing away from the red and moved the pink then it would have to be judged a foul, 4 away, for moving the pink since the player was technically hitting the red first.

But then again, if the cueball wasn't quite frozen on the pink then there would be no foul.

I have to say I've never seen a situation where the cueball is frozen on 2 balls, one on and the other not on without him having an escape route where he can play away without moving either ball.

Now the problem is, when moving the pink should it be judged the same as a normal foul committed with the cue or bridge where he's moved the pink? In that case it would be 6 away

Terry

[The Statman]

Terry - as confirmed by Souwester a few posts up, it is specifically stated in the Rules that the penalty for a push stroke, whether a ball on or not, is the value of ball on or ball concerned - whichever is the higher.

Therefore, it would have to be a foul of 6.

As you say, if the cue-ball and pink were not quite touching, it would not be a foul unless he played substantially into it.

[Souwester]

This is a very rare occurance but I would say if the cueball was frozen on both red and pink and the player over compensated when playing away from the red and moved the pink then it would have to be judged a foul, 4 away, for moving the pink since the player was technically hitting the red first.

But if you look at the Push Stroke rule quoted by nrage using my emboldened text, then it is clear that in the OP's scenario the cue ball , tip and pink must all have been in contact at the same time. Hence a 6 point penalty. A push shot is not necessarily committed against the ball on, but against any object ball.

8. Push Stroke
A push stroke is made when the tip of the cue remains in contact with the cue-ball
(a) after the cue-ball has commenced its forward motion, or
(b) as the cue-ball makes contact with an object ball except, where the cue-ball and an object ball are almost touching, it shall not be deemed a push stroke if the cue-ball hits a very fine edge of the object ball.

[Souwester]

But then again, if the cueball wasn't quite frozen on the pink then there would be no foul.

As you say, if the cue-ball and pink were not quite touching, it would not be a foul unless he played substantially into it.

I think if the cue ball is touching the red and very nearly touching the pink then if the pink moves there's a very high probability that it was still a push stroke. It's a matter for the referee's judgement, based on how exactly the shot was played.

[The Statman]

But if you look at the Push Stroke rule quoted by nrage using my emboldened text, then it is clear that in the OP's scenario the cue ball , tip and pink must all have been in contact at the same time. Hence a 6 point penalty. A push shot is not necessarily committed against the ball on, but against any object ball.

8. Push Stroke
A push stroke is made when the tip of the cue remains in contact with the cue-ball
(a) after the cue-ball has commenced its forward motion, or
(b) as the cue-ball makes contact with an object ball except, where the cue-ball and an object ball are almost touching, it shall not be deemed a push stroke if the cue-ball hits a very fine edge of the object ball.

Yes quite. Normally, of course, if the push stroke is committed against a ball not on, it would be a foul anyway for failure to hit the ball on.