Foul and a miss or not?

[Q Ball]

was confused until Statman came along

Q

[DawRef]

Chasmmi.
Yes.

Example. If after potting a red, the player has to bridge awkwardly over the black to pot the yellow, which will mean his opponent needing a snooker to win. Because of the awkward bridging, he fails to hit the yellow. The referee rightly calls 'Foul and a Miss'. His opponent asks for the balls to be replaced and he try again. This time he attempts the green. Again he misses and referee calls Foul and a Miss. His opponent asks for the balls to be replaced. This time, the referee will warn the player that failure to hit the ball on (not necessarily the Yellow or Green), he will forfeit the frame.

As long as snookers are not required and the player can see full central ball of the ball on in a direct straight line (not necessarily both extreme edges), he must hit it.

N.B. If he were to foul the black whilst making the stroke, he would not be called Foul and A Miss. However, any warning in place would remain if he were asked to play the stroke again.

I hope this is clear.

[Joe99]

F&M when fully snookered - are scores considered?

It is not clear from the original post whether the ball on was "fully snookered" or whether a part of the ball was available for a direct shot.

Suppose that NO direct shot is available, (but a shot via a cushion is so that it is not a case of "impossible to hit")

If the player attempts the indirect shot but fails, does the referee take into account whether or not either player needs snookers?

As I read rule 14, the issue of difference in scores is only mentioned in paragraphs (b) and (c). Paragraph (b) is relevant when some part of the ball on was available, while paragraph (c) applies when direct central contact is available.

Is it true that when no direct shot is available, the referee's call is based purely on his judgment as to whether the player to the best of his ability endeavored to hit the ball on and that the scores are irrelevant?

[DawRef]

For the 'three miss & out', so to speak, the player must be able to see full ball central contact. So if only a few mm is visible, it is irrelevant whether he has to play off of one, two or three cushions, or none at all, he cannot lose the frame by 'missing' (though there will be a time eventually, if he keeps missing, when he will need snookers), as long as he makes a genuine attempt to hit the ball on.

Section 3, 14(c)(i) can best be described by example:

A player is 30 points behind with one red on the table. He can see the Red for full ball central contact. He plays a stroke but misses the Red - a foul and miss, and four points to his opponent. He is now 34 points behind and is asked to play again from the original position. Now, if he plays and misses again, a miss will be called because the rule states that it is now 'regardless of the difference in scores'. It makes no difference that he now requires a snooker, a Miss must be called.

Invariably the referee will decide if a good enough attempt has been made. It may also be down to a league or tournament ruling that the 'Foul and Miss' will only be called if a player can see full ball central contact, i.e. not snookered (we have this in both leagues I play and referee in).

I hope this makes things a bit clearer.

[Joe99]

Thanks DawRef. The reason for my question is that as part of my effort to understand the rule, I am trying to draw up a flowchart. The only flowchart I have been able to find on line is at:

http://web.archive.org/web/200405160...s/RaL/f&m3.GIF

but I have a problem with this in that the right hand branch (covering the case of NO direct stroke available) includes the choice "were snookers required before or after the stroke?" which I do not think is relevant in this case.

If I can figure out how, I will try to post a copy of my flowchart to the forum so that you and others can give an opinion on its accuracy.

[DawRef]

This flow chart is the one currently used in John Street's book and in the book produced by the Sussex Referees Association.

You must remember that the player at all times must make a fair attempt to hit the ball on.

The flow chart bit you are questioning, covers the situation where a player is well and truly snookered and just taps the cue ball from behind the snookering ball(s). Originally, this would have been a fair attempt, but not now. If he done this now, the referee would quite rightly call Foul and A Miss, regardless of the scores.

Even if the only path is to hit the snookering ball, then in this case, the referee would only call foul (Section 3, Rule 14, final two sentences).

I hope this makes things clearer.

[Foul and a Miss]

If anyone needs a snooker, a miss will not be called.

Looks like i'm the one to ask lol , but my name has nothing to do with this topic.

Elvaago has got it spot on to be honest, and you don't need to go into depth to let someone else understand a rule.