Kicks and long pots

[daffie]

Not trying to start a whole very complex discussion about the origin of kicks, but I was just wondering why kicks never really seem to happen on long pots and long safety shots? Kicks mostly happen when cueball is in closer proximity to the object ball. Hey...could I be on to something here???

[CueInAction]

I wouldn't say its to do with long vs short pots, more so to do with shot power. From my experience, the majority of kicks happen when playing drag run through shots. Once a bit of power is put into the shot it seems to eliminate the kick

[daffie]

I wouldn't say its to do with long vs short pots, more so to do with shot power. From my experience, the majority of kicks happen when playing drag run through shots. Once a bit of power is put into the shot it seems to eliminate the kick

Cheers. And yes I was basically thinking along the same lines, as a long pot most often is played with 'normal' speed...so no real power shot nor a drag shot. Must be something there...

[pottr]

Once a bit of power is put into the shot it seems to eliminate the kick

Also, a touch more pace makes it near impossible to identify.

[narl]

I always find it weird how after they get a kick they immediately want the white cleaned, ive seen frames where the player has a kick on the first shot after the whites cleaned. Doesn't eliminate the possibility of it at all seeing as they've still no clue what causes it.

[cally]

It's all in the strike.. You hardly see kicks from players such as ron....(amongst others... )

[nrage]

Not trying to start a whole very complex discussion about the origin of kicks, but I was just wondering why kicks never really seem to happen on long pots and long safety shots? Kicks mostly happen when cueball is in closer proximity to the object ball. Hey...could I be on to something here???

It makes sense to me.

I think one of the possible causes for kicks is the white effectively "bouncing" toward the red. If the white comes partially down on the red it will bounce the red up and the energy required to do that is subtracted from the forward motion, plus because balls are spherical the contact point is not what you'd expect and you get a thicker contact (always thicker, never thinner because the "normal" contact point is the widest part of both balls). Likewise, I think it may be possible for the white to land just before hitting the red, compress the cloth and come up under the red. If that can happen, you would see a very similar thing, energy lost lifting the red and a thicker contact.

So.. if bouncing is one cause of kicks and on longer pots all bouncing stops before contact, then you remove one cause for kicks and make it less likely. If bouncing is the only cause of kicks, then you would get none at all. If bouncing was the cause of 80% of kicks then you would get a lot less, but might still get one.

[vmax4steve]

Most kicks happen around the top of the table where most of the break building takes place, where most of the chalk from the cue tips is deposited on the cloth, especially around the spots. There is always some chalk that comes off the cue ball every time an object ball is contacted, and as the colours are practically always in the same place there is a circle of chalk that collects around each spot over time under the cloth.

I saw this once when watching a table fitter fit a new cloth, the chalk circle gets quite hard and the bloke had to scrape it off so maybe the cue ball lifts when rolling over it before contacting the colour, causing kicks from time to time. Colour spots also get depressed and dipped over time and this also cause bad contacts where the colour jumps out of the dip and the cue ball dies on the cloth.

Chalk on the cue ball causes kicks, dirt, fluff and hair on the cue ball causes kicks, depressed spots cause kicks, cue ball bouncing causes kicks but the major factor IMO that causes kicks is the material the balls are made of. There weren't so many kicks when the super crystalate balls were used on new tables with new cloths in pro tournaments as there are now with these phenolic resin balls. OK so the cloths are thinner now and bouncing has become an issue but there are a lot of kicks when the shot played is just a slow run through, and cleaning the cue ball seems to make no difference to this at all.

[nrage]

What is it about the balls do you think that causes the kicks? Do they hold chalk more easily? Some suggest a build up of static causing more chalk to cling.

I said "bouncing" but you're right it's not just bouncing that causes a change in the contact point and some up/down force between the balls. Any depression, or bump in the table or cloth.

As for slow run through kicks.. I wonder how much effect playing with top has on the white.. does playing with top cause the white to bounce back up off the slate/cloth?

[vmax4steve]

What is it about the balls do you think that causes the kicks? Do they hold chalk more easily? Some suggest a build up of static causing more chalk to cling.

It's not static as I once saw Steve Davis demonstrate on tv trying to charge the cue ball with a polishing mop on an electric drill but when measured there was no electric charge present.
I believe that phenolic resin isn't as uniformly elastic as super crystalate and that there are a lot of dead spots contained within the material and when one of these dead spots is the contact point between the two balls there is a kick.
Some of these bad contacts are not obvious kicks, as in that neither of the balls concerned jump, so it is not obviously noticeable but an awful lot of the time the contacts are thicker than played and any spin applied to the cue ball seems to dissipate.

Of course I can't prove this but I regularly play with both types of balls in the same conditions and the supers are definately better and only kick when dirty where the phenolics kick at will.

[alabadi]

Colour spots also get depressed and dipped over time and this also cause bad contacts where the colour jumps out of the dip and the cue ball dies on the cloth.
.

your're right vmax i have had kicks or bad contact on long blues, so it can happen too over distance, i though as well that chalk from the tip sometimes is transfered to the cueball and if that exact spot contacts the OB you get a sougt of less than crisp contact which again can effect the shot, as the cueball stays a fraction longer in contact with the OB it has a slightly dragging effect causing it to be thick.

Alabbadi

[nrage]

your're right vmax i have had kicks or bad contact on long blues, so it can happen too over distance...

The key point here is that the contact between the balls is above or below the widest/middle point on the waist of both/either ball and you get a kick - because energy is taken from the horizontal motion and used to add vertical motion. And because the contact is above/below the widest point - it gets thicker. So, for whatever reason; bouncing, depressions, something on the surface of the table, you shift the contact and get a kick.

[Vic Flange]

The key point here is that the contact between the balls is above or below the widest/middle point on the waist of both/either ball and you get a kick - because energy is taken from the horizontal motion and used to add vertical motion. And because the contact is above/below the widest point - it gets thicker. So, for whatever reason; bouncing, depressions, something on the surface of the table, you shift the contact and get a kick.

This is definitely true.
Years ago I used to play on a table where there was damage to the blue spot and the ball used to sit in a depression. The ball used to kick practically every single time it was struck. We ended up spotting the blue slightly off its spot.

[daffie]

The key point here is that the contact between the balls is above or below the widest/middle point on the waist of both/either ball and you get a kick - because energy is taken from the horizontal motion and used to add vertical motion. And because the contact is above/below the widest point - it gets thicker. So, for whatever reason; bouncing, depressions, something on the surface of the table, you shift the contact and get a kick.

I also think this might be the biggest contributing factor to kicks, along probably with as suggested earlier the newer type balls. I also have personally thought kicks happen more often when the cueball has not been struck well...that is it will bounce (more) before striking the object ball...at which point as you say the cue ball will not strike the object ball deadcenter. Therefore kicks I think are for a big part due to the player not hitting the cue ball cleanly. In many replays on bbc and eurosport you can often clearly see the cueball bounce heavily before hitting object ball.

Remains very intruiging to me....also, due to the many unexpected kicks, we as spectators are (mostly) treated to interesting frames imo. Many unexpected chances for both players, sometimes when a frame would have been in the bag already. Makes snooker more interesting to watch imo. Unless of course a possible 147 is screwed due to a kick...now that would annoy me

[vmax4steve]

Remains very intruiging to me....also, due to the many unexpected kicks, we as spectators are (mostly) treated to interesting frames imo. Many unexpected chances for both players, sometimes when a frame would have been in the bag already. Makes snooker more interesting to watch imo. Unless of course a possible 147 is screwed due to a kick...now that would annoy me

Not very interesting when it happens to you when you are playing though. I've lost count the number of times I have been struggling in a frame, get in after potting a few difficult ones only to then get a bloody kick on a dead easy slow run thru and see the hard work go to waste.
If I ever get into a position where I need one ball to make my first ton I will ask for the cue ball and object ball to be cleaned and the table brushed and ironed before playing the shot. Bet I still get a kick after all that.