Rule clarifications

[CaveBadSeed]

I have two questions i would like answered regarding two possible situations in a frame of Snooker that i have never seen occur, but are possible and to which i do not know the rule situation.

1 - A player is on a break (say 17), has just potted a Red and Snookered himself on all colours. He nominates the Black, misses it & so the Ref calls foul & awards his opponent 7 points. The opponent chooses to have the player put back, who again nominates the Black, and this time pots it! What happens next? Is that a foul, or does the break continue, and if so, what at - 7 or 24?

2 - A player is 34 ahead with 35 on and plays the final Red, leaving it in the jaws of the pocket (or wherever), meaning his opponent can clear with 35. What if the player who missed the Red just got down again and potted the Red (i.e. a foul shot) giving his opponent 4 points, but removing 8, therefor leaving him 30 ahead with only 27 on. What would the Ref do?

By the way - i know that is cheating & i have never done it! I'm just curious what could be done about that.

Many thanks.

[sunny3909]

Hi mate!
In the 1st situation the break won't continue as the player has given away foul points away in his previous shot,so the break will count 7.

2nd situation- U have made the situation bit exaggerated.I will explain u with an example-
IN THE 2007 WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP QUARTER FINAL IN THE 19TH FRAME RONNIE LEAD JOHN HIGGINS BY 34 POINTS WITH ONLY 1 RED REMAINING,RONNIE POTTED THE RED BUT THE CUEBALL ALSO WENT IN OFF SO. JOHN HIGGINS WAS AWARDED 4 POINTS BUT TO HIS DISADVANTAGE HE NOW NEEDED A SNOOKER. UNFORTUNATELY CURRENTLY THERE ARE NO RULES TO TACKLE THIS KIND OF A SCENARIO.

[davis_greatest]

sunny3909 has dealt with point 1.

As for point 2, I am sure that the resident referees here will comment, but my view is that if the player deliberately knocked the red in, the referee would take action under the "Conduct" rule (Section 4, Rule 1).

This says that any conduct "which in the opinion of the referee is wilfully ... unfair or ... otherwise amounts to ungentlemanly conduct, the referee shall warn the Player ... or award the frame to his opponent ... or
in the event that the conduct is sufficiently serious, award the game to his opponent."

The same would apply if I got in first at the start of a frame, made a break of (say) 35, and then just picked up all the remaining reds and threw them onto the floor.

[CaveBadSeed]

Thanks guys - i asked, and i got! Can't say fairer than that!

Cheers!

[DawRef]

Point 2.

In fact this is also covered in Section 3 Rule 12, Playing out of turn. When the red had come to rest (not in a pocket), Player A's turn had ended. By playing the next stroke, he has played out of turn.
As a referee, as well as awarding his oponent 4 points, he would also be warned under Section 4, rule 1(b), Ungentlemanly conduct.
Also all balls would be replaced, under Section 3, Rule 15, Ball moved other than by striker. The ball was moved by Player A, who was not the striker.
Hope this clears things.

[The Statman]

Hi mate!
In the 1st situation the break won't continue as the player has given away foul points away in his previous shot,so the break will count 7.

2nd situation- U have made the situation bit exaggerated.I will explain u with an example-
IN THE 2007 WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP QUARTER FINAL IN THE 19TH FRAME RONNIE LEAD JOHN HIGGINS BY 34 POINTS WITH ONLY 1 RED REMAINING,RONNIE POTTED THE RED BUT THE CUEBALL ALSO WENT IN OFF SO. JOHN HIGGINS WAS AWARDED 4 POINTS BUT TO HIS DISADVANTAGE HE NOW NEEDED A SNOOKER. UNFORTUNATELY CURRENTLY THERE ARE NO RULES TO TACKLE THIS KIND OF A SCENARIO.

You say "unfortunately" but is it?

Indeed, as a result of Ronnie's foul John now needs snookers, and in that sense it is unlucky for John. However, if the white hadn't gone in, he would have been 35 behind with 27 on, and Ronnie to play for a colour.

So in fact, by going in off, John now needs fewer snookers than he would have required had the cue-ball not gone in off (but the red still had gone in).

[sunny3909]

Hi Statsman! I said 'UNFORTUNATELY' in the larger sense that when u have fouled u shouldn't gain an advanyage by it.

[The Statman]

Yes I realised what you meant.

But, has Ronnie gained an advantage by the white going in? I din't think he has – he has actually gained an advantage by the red going in during what turned out to be a foul.

Sorry for the delay in replying!

[angelinababe]

firstly why continue playing if you already knew it was going to be a foul and secondly grow up and stop exaggerating... But good attempt

[The Statman]

Yes, I was respoonding to the original post which did not suggest any misconduct by the player, only that he knocked a red in and the white then went in-off (it could just as easily have been that the white went round and knocked a colour in, or the player fouled with his sleeve as he got up – he would have no reason to do this deliberately even after the red has sunk.)

[The Statman]

Point 2.

In fact this is also covered in Section 3 Rule 12, Playing out of turn. When the red had come to rest (not in a pocket), Player A's turn had ended. By playing the next stroke, he has played out of turn.
As a referee, as well as awarding his oponent 4 points, he would also be warned under Section 4, rule 1(b), Ungentlemanly conduct.
Also all balls would be replaced, under Section 3, Rule 15, Ball moved other than by striker. The ball was moved by Player A, who was not the striker.
Hope this clears things.

DawRef, this is a tricky one but I'm not sure that you can foul the player who 'played out of turn' because the non-striker cannot be fouled.

The balls can certainly be replaced, as you say, for ball moved by other than striker, but the foul is not on.

The Playing out of turn Rule is intended to cover doubles matches, where the 'wrong' half of the pairing plays the shot. He IS the striker, because the partnership rather than each individual is considered as the striker, and that player has indeed played out of turn.


Slilghtly more complicated is where the player leaves the red over the pocket, and BEFORE THE WHITE (or other ball) STOPS MOVING he bangs the red in. Then he IS the striker, and can be fouled, but there are no grounds by which the red can be replaced.

A tricky one which could be debated for a long time without a consensus that seems fair overall.

[poolqjunkie]

DawRef, this is a tricky one but I'm not sure that you can foul the player who 'played out of turn' because the non-striker cannot be fouled.

The balls can certainly be replaced, as you say, for ball moved by other than striker, but the foul is not on.

The Playing out of turn Rule is intended to cover doubles matches, where the 'wrong' half of the pairing plays the shot. He IS the striker, because the partnership rather than each individual is considered as the striker, and that player has indeed played out of turn.


Slilghtly more complicated is where the player leaves the red over the pocket, and BEFORE THE WHITE (or other ball) STOPS MOVING he bangs the red in. Then he IS the striker, and can be fouled, but there are no grounds by which the red can be replaced.

A tricky one which could be debated for a long time without a consensus that seems fair overall.

I thinm in situations whereas the non-striker is acting ungentlemen-like, he can be fouled. For example, if he moves in front fo the striker intentionally and so on-so, can that be applied here and foul the non striker and have the red replaced?

[john street]

Point 2.

In fact this is also covered in Section 3 Rule 12, Playing out of turn. When the red had come to rest (not in a pocket), Player A's turn had ended. By playing the next stroke, he has played out of turn.
As a referee, as well as awarding his oponent 4 points, he would also be warned under Section 4, rule 1(b), Ungentlemanly conduct.
Also all balls would be replaced, under Section 3, Rule 15, Ball moved other than by striker. The ball was moved by Player A, who was not the striker.
Hope this clears things.

I am afraid that the answer given was incorrect when it says that 'when the red had come to rest (not in a pocket) Players A's turn had ended and by playing the next stroke, he has played out of turn'. Also all balls would be replaced. The ball was moved Player A, who was not the striker!
The point is that Player A was STILL the striker and if you read Section 2 Rule 5 it reads 'The person about to play or in play is the STRIKER and remains so until the referee has decided he has left the table'. He did not leave the table so he was still the striker!
Permit me to give you another example of why the answer is wrong. Let us assume that a player committed a foul on a red and all balls had come to a halt. The referee called a foul whilst the player was still leaning over the table. According to the answer given at this point the players turn had finished and he becomes the 'non-striker'. What would happen if when getting up off the table he fouled the black? According to the answer he cannot be fouled seven points because he has become the non-striker! Of course he would be fouled seven points as he is still the striker until he has left the table as decided by the referee. I hope this clears the matter up for you. Finally Reds are NEVER replaced on the table except in a Foul and a Miss situation.

John Street

[noel]

I am afraid that the answer given was incorrect when it says that 'when the red had come to rest (not in a pocket) Players A's turn had ended and by playing the next stroke, he has played out of turn'. Also all balls would be replaced. The ball was moved Player A, who was not the striker!
The point is that Player A was STILL the striker and if you read Section 2 Rule 5 it reads 'The person about to play or in play is the STRIKER and remains so until the referee has decided he has left the table'. He did not leave the table so he was still the striker!
Permit me to give you another example of why the answer is wrong. Let us assume that a player committed a foul on a red and all balls had come to a halt. The referee called a foul whilst the player was still leaning over the table. According to the answer given at this point the players turn had finished and he becomes the 'non-striker'. What would happen if when getting up off the table he fouled the black? According to the answer he cannot be fouled seven points because he has become the non-striker! Of course he would be fouled seven points as he is still the striker until he has left the table as decided by the referee. I hope this clears the matter up for you. Finally Reds are NEVER replaced on the table except in a Foul and a Miss situation.

John Street

Spot on, John!
We're lucky to have your expertise here.

Noel

[APK]

Just a minor point to John Streets answer which has nothing to do with the situation but a red CAN be replaced on the table under the 'Ball on edge of pocket' Rule.
This rule states that if a ball on the edge (fall) of a pocket enters the pocket without being hit by another ball, and being no part of any stroke in progress then it shall be replaced.