Is Robert Osborne Right?

[arbitrage]

Yes, it is ironic indeed.:-)
Personally, I feel that the customers of snooker cues pay most of their attention on the playability of their cues; while a lot of US Pool customers in the US/Japan/Taiwan pay lots of attention on the butt--ring work, material of the joint/ferrule, type of joint, inlays, finish, and how complex the design is...
I have seen US pool cues with very complex designs that will blow the most intricate snooker cue out the door; but playability cannot be achieved through fancy design/inlay. In my opinion, from personal experience, a lot of pool cues I have tried did not really play that well, certainly not in the same class as the best snooker cues--although they were much more expensive.
Anyone with money can buy a very expensive CNC lathe, a cue lathe, some DVD, books, and some woods and start making US Pool cues. There are so many new cue makers in the US now.
But a cue should be made to play the game first and foremost so it needs to play well before anything else. It is my firm belief that a cue maker should learn how to build a good hitting cue before trying to make all these fancy inlays and such.
But this is not the case with a lot of US pool cue makers. They spend their money and time trying to put very fancy inlays in their cues; buying very expensive spray booth to get a mirror like auto finish; they put loads of ivory and precious stones on their cues and spend tones of hours trying to make the rings as complicated as possible.
When it comes to the shaft, very often the quality is not very good, or it is made with a Predator 314 shaft or one of those "high performance" shafts. Because they use three sections in the butt section, it is hard to make the cue with very good transmission of hit. Since they usually use the same taper which is set by CNC or a tapering bar, all the shafts would feature the same taper. Some shaft woods are stiffer than others so with the same taper it is no surprise that the hit is not consistent from shafts to shafts.
Of course with so much money invested a spray booth, CNC lathe, inlay equipment...they cannot sell the cue for just $500 each. A lot of customers in the US plays with a Predator shafts so they are actually buying a cue because of the butt.
Snooker cues, in my humble opinions, make much more sense when it comes to its construction. The whole idea revolves around how to build a cue that plays very well. It is a very practical approach--without too much bells and whistles-- to build a piece of equipment to pot balls.
Customers are usually paying a lot of attention on the shaft, and the way the cue plays, rather than whether the cue has lots of inlays or any ivory or things like that.
Playability is very subjective and hard to explain. It is hard to put a price tag on playability alone. You can see the ivory and diamond on a pool cue--you can justify paying $10,000 for a cue if you can see 3 carats of diamond inlaid on it; but how do you justify paying $2000 for a cue with some wood splices on the butt just because it plays well? And what one person thinks is a great hitter might not be suitable for the next.
For a snooker cue to fetch the kind of money a pool cue can is more difficult simply because traditionally a snooker cue is supposed to be quite plain looking and most of the value of the cue is found in the shaft and how it play.
Having said that, there is no law that says you cannot build a snooker cue that plays well and also looks a million dollars.:-)

i should have shown you this link first..... nevertheless, well written reply although i would disagree with you about pricing of snooker cues - its about how you market them, not about how much a piece of wood with a few splices on them is worth.

http://www.dunhill.com/en-gb/shoponl...i-butt-qgh1015

[poolqjunkie]

i should have shown you this link first..... nevertheless, well written reply although i would disagree with you about pricing of snooker cues - its about how you market them, not about how much a piece of wood with a few splices on them is worth.

http://www.dunhill.com/en-gb/shoponl...i-butt-qgh1015

Thanks for the link. I love that case. :-)
The US cue makers have come a long way with marketing their cues.
For example, they have an association for all the US cue makers and also one for international cue makers. They have cue shows every year and invitations are sent out to cue collectors and buyers worldwide. There are also some cues displayed in museums in the US, plus at least one cue maker I know have held a cue exhibition in an Art Gallery. During big tournaments many cue makers will show up to showcase their cues so customers have a chance to touch and try their cues and talk to them in person.
As Leonard mentioned great effort has been put in to the blue book which I believe has been printed to a 3rd or perhaps 4th edition now. It clearly states the history and background of each cue maker plus a price estimate of each cue maker's work (although the price is not really that accurate). There are also many pictures both in black and white and colour of their cues.
Every year there is a show opened only to traders and almost all US cue makers will show up trying to introduce their new cues to buyers from all over the world. There is also a cue collectors show which is kind of exclusive where some very crazy cues can be seen. When I say crazy I mean cues with over 1000 pieces of inlays without any one piece identical to the others, or cues with extensive ivory scrimshaw inlays depicting some stories or things like that.
Because of all these efforts, cue collectors and buyers have become very knowledgeable and educated. They understand the difference between each cue maker and they know how to appreciate the skill involved in making a cue. It pushes the standard of cue making (mostly in the cosmetic aspects of cue butts) to a whole new level.
There are also DVD and books you can buy to learn how to make cues, and cue lathes specially designed for making cues can be bought. So, it is not that difficult to get into US pool cue making for someone with a bit of cash. As they try, they become more aware of how difficult it is and why some cues are worth so much.
As you can see, the US cue makers have done a lot over the last decades to bring recognition and exposure of their craft to the attention of the general public.
When the economy in Japan was blooming, the Japanese were one of the biggest buyer of US pool cues and they have also done a lot to promote US pool cues in their homeland. There were two pool magazines published in Japan and pages of full colour ads were often seen with many cues displayed along with prices and names of cue makers. Most of these cues were above the USD$1000 mark and could go beyond $10,000.
The Japanese example shows the effort put forth by the traders to promote the work of the makers which once again greatly helped to increase the awareness of US pool cues in Asia.
If none of these was done, I do not believe a US cue maker could make a cue, look the customer in the eyes and ask for $15,000 USD with a straight face.
What the Chinese are doing now for snooker cues is a bit similar to what the Japanese were doing with US pool cues. They work very hard to brand the name and market the cue maker's work as a very exclusive piece of collectible art.
Snooker cue making is very different in this marketing aspect. It may be a cultural thing I am not sure. But it seems that lots of effort has been put into promoting professional snooker and snooker players but little effort has been put into promoting the cue makers. The cue makers also are not doing much as a group to promote themselves. May be that is why snooker cues are very underpriced...I am not sure.

[arbitrage]

Thanks for the link. I love that case. :-)
The US cue makers have come a long way with marketing their cues.
For example, they have an association for all the US cue makers and also one for international cue makers. They have cue shows every year and invitations are sent out to cue collectors and buyers worldwide. There are also some cues displayed in museums in the US, plus at least one cue maker I know have held a cue exhibition in an Art Gallery. During big tournaments many cue makers will show up to showcase their cues so customers have a chance to touch and try their cues and talk to them in person.
As Leonard mentioned great effort has been put in to the blue book which I believe has been printed to a 3rd or perhaps 4th edition now. It clearly states the history and background of each cue maker plus a price estimate of each cue maker's work (although the price is not really that accurate). There are also many pictures both in black and white and colour of their cues.
Every year there is a show opened only to traders and almost all US cue makers will show up trying to introduce their new cues to buyers from all over the world. There is also a cue collectors show which is kind of exclusive where some very crazy cues can be seen. When I say crazy I mean cues with over 1000 pieces of inlays without any one piece identical to the others, or cues with extensive ivory scrimshaw inlays depicting some stories or things like that.
Because of all these efforts, cue collectors and buyers have become very knowledgeable and educated. They understand the difference between each cue maker and they know how to appreciate the skill involved in making a cue. It pushes the standard of cue making (mostly in the cosmetic aspects of cue butts) to a whole new level.
There are also DVD and books you can buy to learn how to make cues, and cue lathes specially designed for making cues can be bought. So, it is not that difficult to get into US pool cue making for someone with a bit of cash. As they try, they become more aware of how difficult it is and why some cues are worth so much.
As you can see, the US cue makers have done a lot over the last decades to bring recognition and exposure of their craft to the attention of the general public.
When the economy in Japan was blooming, the Japanese were one of the biggest buyer of US pool cues and they have also done a lot to promote US pool cues in their homeland. There were two pool magazines published in Japan and pages of full colour ads were often seen with many cues displayed along with prices and names of cue makers. Most of these cues were above the USD$1000 mark and could go beyond $10,000.
The Japanese example shows the effort put forth by the traders to promote the work of the makers which once again greatly helped to increase the awareness of US pool cues in Asia.
If none of these was done, I do not believe a US cue maker could make a cue, look the customer in the eyes and ask for $15,000 USD with a straight face.
What the Chinese are doing now for snooker cues is a bit similar to what the Japanese were doing with US pool cues. They work very hard to brand the name and market the cue maker's work as a very exclusive piece of collectible art.
Snooker cue making is very different in this marketing aspect. It may be a cultural thing I am not sure. But it seems that lots of effort has been put into promoting professional snooker and snooker players but little effort has been put into promoting the cue makers. The cue makers also are not doing much as a group to promote themselves. May be that is why snooker cues are very underpriced...I am not sure.

possibly its because snooker was UK-centric until recently - and cue making was a "cottage" industry until john parris really developed his brand and cues have never been viewed generally as a collectible item in the UK. i agree with your point that as a group, cuemakers haven't done very much collectively to promote their industry. even the smoking pipe industry has industry orgs, charters, newsletters and blue books / catalogs - and if pipes are viewed as collectibles, why shouldn't cues be?

maybe you should be the break-out guy who changes the paradigm by charging 5k quid per customized made to order cue?

[poolqjunkie]

LOL, we already have a pioneer with the name of Fedia who is working hard to change the paradigm as we speak.:-):-)

[damienlch]

possibly its because snooker was UK-centric until recently - and cue making was a "cottage" industry until john parris really developed his brand and cues have never been viewed generally as a collectible item in the UK ...maybe you should be the break-out guy who changes the paradigm by charging 5k quid per customized made to order cue?

Now now, Arbitrage... don't go putting such ideas into our dear snooker cue makers head... or are you looking for an opportunity to arbitrage?

[old school]

Two very well written replies from PQJ. I personally believe that collectors of cues,particularly American Pool cues, can be divided into two categories.Those that collect cues from a historical perspective i.e. the collector buying early Balabushkas,Helmstetter,Brunswick,hall of fame makers etc and those collectors collecting cues by known modern makers with all the fancy inlays and precious stones and metals,for the intrisic value of the materials and the time the maker invests in the construction of said cue.The modern cue may have a generic i.e pro taper ,Predator shaft and may not be a particularly good "playing cue" , but the collector may never use the cue at all,to him it is a) a piece of art,b) an article of currency (re-sale value) or c)an investment .I think in a way this is sad in that the cue will not be used for its intended purpose but that would depend on what its purpose was.Is that cue meant to be played with or left in a cabinet ,gaining in value ? A cue,whatever discipline you follow,is to me first and foremost ,designed and built,sweated and laboured over as a tool to play a game.Playability should be the number one priority and if you happen to make something beautiful at the same time ,then you have done something marvellous.

[Neil Taperell]

Who made the Dunhill cue ? and how on earth can they justify £4500k for the cue . Says it's made in London ......JP , RO ????

[damienlch]

...A cue,whatever discipline you follow,is to me first and foremost ,designed and built,sweated and laboured over as a tool to play a game.Playability should be the number one priority and if you happen to make something beautiful at the same time ,then you have done something marvellous.

That's most aptly put, Old School... I can't agree more with you on this one. A cue is meant to be played and rightly so should be played to the heart's content, it is not some trophy to be hung on the wall and admired... what a waste!! That's not doing the cue justice imo. The best cues are the ones that play beautifully and looks as gorgeous.

[arbitrage]

Who made the Dunhill cue ? and how on earth can they justify £4500k for the cue . Says it's made in London ......JP , RO ????

emmm... how do you justify prices for LV? hermes? probably made by uncle wang in his backyard in his spare time but at least people will know you are loaded when you walk into a club with that cue.

[jrc750]

...... but at least people will know you are loaded when you walk into a club with that cue.

Its more likely they will realise you have (had) more money than sense !!!! cue looks to be worth £150 max lol, the splice on the shaft doesn't even line up with the chamfer on the butt

[poolqjunkie]

In that case, I need to know where uncle wang lives.:-)

I suspect that cue is probably made by B&W or something like that and it is obviously not targeted at the members here on TSF but more for people who wants to buy something unique with the Dunhill brand. The price is so high because that is what Dunhill preceives its brand image is worth. Just like the high price tag LV quotes for one of their custom cue cases, you are paying for the prestige associated with the brand image.

Speaking of cues being collectibles, may I show you the following web site. Enjoy.

http://www.cornerstonecues.com/

[arbitrage]

Its more likely they will realise you have (had) more money than sense !!!! cue looks to be worth £150 max lol, the splice on the shaft doesn't even line up with the chamfer on the butt

chicks won't know that. you're not thinking of impressing guys / regular players with a dunhill cue are you?!

[arbitrage]

auld has jumped onto the china express too.

[jrc750]

... auld has jumped onto the china express too.

How much is he trying to sell them for ?

[cally]

The splicing looks spot on fairplay....