Quality of ash shaft

[billabong]

Thanks again Mike, but now I have to admit that I am utterly confused as to what makes a good cue. Please let me explain as to what I mean. How do you then determine the value of a cue, i.e. what makes one cue worth £50 and another cue worth a 1000, bearing in mind that if I would have that sort of budget, you'd be the first I would contact.

I know your asking Mike this, but I'd say the best way is by having a hit with it. Since a good feel for one player will
feel wrong for another player, it's really the only way to find out.

You could pick up anything from a club cue to a £1000 cue custom made for you, and it could give you a feel that you may never find in any other cue.

That's the value of a cue.

As for the cost of a cue, that's down to a combination of the price of sourcing wood/ the makers time and experience making the cue / what the market will take.

A good maker will reduce the chances of the cue not suiting you ( assuming he's selected the shaft wisely, and you know your ideal specs ) but it's not a cert.

IMVHO

[MikeWooldridge]

Mike, would you say that the way the ash is treated/dried/aged is more important than the pattern on the ash?

Thanks!

being dry enough and tapering in stages, over time, are the most important things to ensure a stable, good shaft.

but that can't make a bad playing bit of wood good no matter what you do.

Thanks again Mike, but now I have to admit that I am utterly confused as to what makes a good cue. Please let me explain as to what I mean. How do you then determine the value of a cue, i.e. what makes one cue worth £50 and another cue worth a 1000, bearing in mind that if I would have that sort of budget, you'd be the first I would contact.

like everything else in this world, if something is expensive, it is expensive for a reason, i.e. better quality materials, better quality build.

as a consumer, you may not recognise or notice these things, but that is pretty much a fact.

cues are funny. a simple object, but difficult to get right. you may be lucky and find your ideal player in a club rack, but more likely, you will need to spend some money to get a level of quality you may, or may not be, striving for.

also, like most things, inexperience will usually lead to poor judgements, but in time you will learn to spot 'good' cues.

[trevs1]

@ Rimmer10....

There is not a lot to be confused about.

Ash is good enough to use for cue shafts as long as it has.....

a) adequate stiffness
b) adequate weight.

Outside of that, there are the other obvious factors, such as appearance (arrow markings - straightness of side grain - colour), but in reality, these are far less significant (especially in playing performance terms) than the weight and stiffness. Pieces of ash cut from the very same board (or plank) can vary considerably, and, can have dead straight grain and uneven grain. Shafts which display the most even straight grain and perfect arrow markings, could be cut from a board which only a few inches away produces shafts which have uneven grain, which is not straight and does not show the same cleanly defined arrow markings. If you consider that for a moment, why would one shaft with the better 'looking' grain play any better than the shaft with the uneven grain?.....

The answer is..... It won't.

The reason cues play well or not is not due to the appearance of a shaft, not ever. This is regardless of what anyone tells you.

As for what makes one cue worth more (or cost more) than another, well, that's for the indivudual to have their own perception of.
Of course, a cue made with better materials (better grade for whatever species they may be) is likely to cost more to produce, but this is only one element of the final price. Quality of manufacture, such as attention to detail in build and finish, will also have a bearing on price. Perhaps most important aspect of price will be in the perceived value of a brand or maker. Some will have earnt a reputation for quality, and as such, will be able to charge significantly higher prices than those who have not earnt such reputations. Prices will be set by some makers on the basis of charging as close as possible to, or even at the maximum of "what the market will bear" and simply will not take into account what constitutes a "fair price" or "great value" for the customer. This of course makes good business sense, but, needs to be done carefully to avoid alienating customers. The varations in this element of cue pricing is quite dramatic, as many of you will be all too aware. Clearly, those makers who DO charge more are likely to have earnt the opportunity to do so for a reason, and that is usually because their products are superior in some way to the average products out there in the marketplace. This DOES NOT mean that the most expensive are going to be the best, but it does suggest that if it has a higher price, there will be some reason to it, to some extent.

So, the truth is that no matter what the cue, how good the grain or how fabulously well made any cue is, it's no guarantee of helping any indivudual to play better snooker. Having said that, there is a massive difference between a great performing cue and a poor performing cue. This would mean that using a great performing cue, a player would find it much easier to consistently produce a decent average level respective to their own ability / experience. While conversely, a poor cue would inhibit (or hinder) a player from doing so.

The trick is to spot those cues which perform really well. To be able to do that, a player needs to be of a level of proficiency to be able to tell what exactly a cue is giving them in response to their commands. An average club player who cannot string a few balls together is just not going to know or read what the cue is capable of, whereas a top level amateur or pro would know almost immediately, perhaps within a dozen shots.

There is no definitive "best" cue, no matter who makes it, or what from. If you are EVER told differently, especially by someone who stands to profit from telling you and making you believe it, then be very sceptical.

[rimmer10]

To Mike, Billabong and Trev
Thanks guys for your brilliant answers. Mike, after my last response I was a bit worried that you might think I do not value the work of a master cue maker and that I might have offended you. Please believe me when I say that nothing could be further from the truth and is was purely down to my ignorance about the subject in hand. I think what I have failed to realise is that a true master piece of any kind is something that has been given character and soul by its creator. It's what makes a Stradivari violin the best in the world and Swarowski crystals worth as much as they are, i.e. what people are prepared to pay for it. Its something that cannot be measured or expressed in numbers like the horsepower of an engine or overall lap time. Value, as Billabong so brilliantly pointed out, is what makes the guitar of Willie Nelson irreplaceable to him, where to somebody else it's probably just a piece of junk with a massive hole in it. Being a master craftsman in any chosen field is about the skills that have been honed through years of love and dedication that have been put into their work and it's only right that this should reflect in the price of their creations. But like Trev says, just like me nan would be no good if asked to jump into a race car and test a few new tyre compounds, it only makes sense if you are at a level where you can take advantage of it all. So I won't be ringing you just yet Mike. Thanks again everyone, I think I finally got it, unless I haven't of course than please let me know.

[trevs1]

The points I raised above were intended to give you some insight into the attributes that constitute a good cue shaft, and to dispel any myths you may have heard. There are just so many preconceived ideas of how a shaft "should" be, that are so wide of the truth, that I feel it does no harm to anyone to offer a bit of a well informed opinion on the reality of it.

Likewise with the parts about prices and value for money etc. These points are to offer something for everyone to consider, and are in no way any attempt to steer anyone either one way or another. People can and do pay varying amounts for various cues, and there is a huge debate to be had on that alone, besides the "shaft quality" question.

At the end of the day, it's up to the individual person to decide what they want, can afford and end up purchasing. There will be a great number of people who maybe read this thread that have paid serious money for cues, when in fact, they are of limited ability and / or experience, and, who have maybe never made a break over 50. That does not mean they cannot spend £500 to £1000 on a cue if they so wish. There is a lot of enjoyment to be had in trying and owning different cues. They can and do make 'some' people feel happier when they play, which to some extent makes them enjoy the whole playing experience more.

To that end, cues of all price ranges should be used by everyone. There are no rules which prohibit people from using a high quality cue, simply on the basis that they are novices. If you enjoy it and if it does not cause you any serious financial harm, then there is no problem having what you want, whatever that may be.

[jb134]

@ Rimmer10....

There is not a lot to be confused about.

Ash is good enough to use for cue shafts as long as it has.....

a) adequate stiffness
b) adequate weight.

Outside of that, there are the other obvious factors, such as appearance (arrow markings - straightness of side grain - colour), but in reality, these are far less significant (especially in playing performance terms) than the weight and stiffness. Pieces of ash cut from the very same board (or plank) can vary considerably, and, can have dead straight grain and uneven grain. Shafts which display the most even straight grain and perfect arrow markings, could be cut from a board which only a few inches away produces shafts which have uneven grain, which is not straight and does not show the same cleanly defined arrow markings. If you consider that for a moment, why would one shaft with the better 'looking' grain play any better than the shaft with the uneven grain?.....

The answer is..... It won't.

The reason cues play well or not is not due to the appearance of a shaft, not ever. This is regardless of what anyone tells you.

As for what makes one cue worth more (or cost more) than another, well, that's for the indivudual to have their own perception of.
Of course, a cue made with better materials (better grade for whatever species they may be) is likely to cost more to produce, but this is only one element of the final price. Quality of manufacture, such as attention to detail in build and finish, will also have a bearing on price. Perhaps most important aspect of price will be in the perceived value of a brand or maker. Some will have earnt a reputation for quality, and as such, will be able to charge significantly higher prices than those who have not earnt such reputations. Prices will be set by some makers on the basis of charging as close as possible to, or even at the maximum of "what the market will bear" and simply will not take into account what constitutes a "fair price" or "great value" for the customer. This of course makes good business sense, but, needs to be done carefully to avoid alienating customers. The varations in this element of cue pricing is quite dramatic, as many of you will be all too aware. Clearly, those makers who DO charge more are likely to have earnt the opportunity to do so for a reason, and that is usually because their products are superior in some way to the average products out there in the marketplace. This DOES NOT mean that the most expensive are going to be the best, but it does suggest that if it has a higher price, there will be some reason to it, to some extent.

So, the truth is that no matter what the cue, how good the grain or how fabulously well made any cue is, it's no guarantee of helping any indivudual to play better snooker. Having said that, there is a massive difference between a great performing cue and a poor performing cue. This would mean that using a great performing cue, a player would find it much easier to consistently produce a decent average level respective to their own ability / experience. While conversely, a poor cue would inhibit (or hinder) a player from doing so.

The trick is to spot those cues which perform really well. To be able to do that, a player needs to be of a level of proficiency to be able to tell what exactly a cue is giving them in response to their commands. An average club player who cannot string a few balls together is just not going to know or read what the cue is capable of, whereas a top level amateur or pro would know almost immediately, perhaps within a dozen shots.

There is no definitive "best" cue, no matter who makes it, or what from. If you are EVER told differently, especially by someone who stands to profit from telling you and making you believe it, then be very sceptical.

Wonderful post.

[MikeWooldridge]

Mike, after my last response I was a bit worried that you might think I do not value the work of a master cue maker and that I might have offended you.

not in the slightest. i understand your dilemma

[mythman69]

being dry enough and tapering in stages, over time, are the most important things to ensure a stable, good shaft.

but that can't make a bad playing bit of wood good no matter what you do.

Thanks Mike! I have heard that the old cue makers used to put a longer single splice (so one is much longer than the others) on a cue that they thought might bend in order to stop it bending that direction. Any views on this?

Cheers!

[MikeWooldridge]

Thanks Mike! I have heard that the old cue makers used to put a longer single splice (so one is much longer than the others) on a cue that they thought might bend in order to stop it bending that direction. Any views on this?

Cheers!

no idea. sounds like bullsh*t to me. more likely a mistake…

[jim evans]

Ive made a few like that,wondered why lol

[rimmer10]

To Trev1
You are right of course, but shouldn't it also be about having earned the right to have access to the best? If someone with very limited ability( a bit like myself) should turn up at his local club with the best equipment money can buy, wouldn't he be perceived as a bit of a laughing stock? Motor racing, for example is awash with rich privateers with the best all singing all dancing equipment and absolutely no clue how to hold a steering wheel. There's a phrase for it, it's called "all the gear, no idea". However if somebody starts of new, no matter how rich or poor with a certain humility and no flashy bulls..t, this person is treated with a certain amount of respect from the off and can expect a fair bit of help from the community (that is until he starts to become a threat of course). I guess the point I am trying to make is that your equipment should reflect your ability. One could almost treat it as an incentive to improve, for example: I won't ring Mike until I've got that first ton under my belt. Anybody think I'm way off or do I have a point?

[jrc750]

To Trev1
You are right of course, but shouldn't it also be about having earned the right to have access to the best? If someone with very limited ability( a bit like myself) should turn up at his local club with the best equipment money can buy, wouldn't he be perceived as a bit of a laughing stock? Motor racing, for example is awash with rich privateers with the best all singing all dancing equipment and absolutely no clue how to hold a steering wheel. There's a phrase for it, it's called "all the gear, no idea". However if somebody starts of new, no matter how rich or poor with a certain humility and no flashy bulls..t, this person is treated with a certain amount of respect from the off and can expect a fair bit of help from the community (that is until he starts to become a threat of course). I guess the point I am trying to make is that your equipment should reflect your ability. One could almost treat it as an incentive to improve, for example: I won't ring Mike until I've got that first ton under my belt. Anybody think I'm way off or do I have a point?

Waiting for the "first ton under your belt" could never come mate , nothing wrong with buying a nice cue, it makes you feel good and positive, and that helps your game. At the end of the day spending £400 or more on a nice cue is still very cheap compared to other sports, and if you play regular is a bit of a bargain, plus re sale value is often excellent.
Not sure if you are aware, but Trevs1 is Trevor white, so you have had 2 of the best cue makers on here helping you out

[rimmer10]

Wow, I had no idea! Taking about putting your foot in it. Should've finished with: "and once I've made my first maximum I'm gonna ring Trevor"

[trevs1]

To Trev1
You are right of course, but shouldn't it also be about having earned the right to have access to the best? If someone with very limited ability( a bit like myself) should turn up at his local club with the best equipment money can buy, wouldn't he be perceived as a bit of a laughing stock? Motor racing, for example is awash with rich privateers with the best all singing all dancing equipment and absolutely no clue how to hold a steering wheel. There's a phrase for it, it's called "all the gear, no idea". However if somebody starts of new, no matter how rich or poor with a certain humility and no flashy bulls..t, this person is treated with a certain amount of respect from the off and can expect a fair bit of help from the community (that is until he starts to become a threat of course). I guess the point I am trying to make is that your equipment should reflect your ability. One could almost treat it as an incentive to improve, for example: I won't ring Mike until I've got that first ton under my belt. Anybody think I'm way off or do I have a point?

There's absolutely no need to "earn" any right to own a great cue, any more than there's need to "earn" the right to do a bit of weekend track stuff in your 911 GT3, which you might only use as a toy. It could be argued that any person could do something amazing to have earnt the money to afford such things, so unless we know their background, it's maybe best to be silent. If you have the disposable cash and enjoy it, where is the problem. The saying of "all the gear but no idea" is fine for some I'm sure, but perhaps says more about those who say it than those it's aimed at. Of course, there will always be some who splash money about, and, are arrogant while they do it. For them, real respect is never going to come freely from others.

As I said previously, cues of any quality can and should be used by any and all players. There is no need to exclude yourself from buying a great cue, made specifically as you would like it, simply because you have not made a century. If it's something you fancy and can afford, and, if you feel you'd enjoy playing more using a cue of fabulous quality, then go for it.

[trevs1]

Wow, I had no idea! Taking about putting your foot in it. Should've finished with: "and once I've made my first maximum I'm gonna ring Trevor"

Maybe better if you don't ring me, I'm not accepting any new work for a while...ha.