Announcement

**Qubit** · 31 July 2008, 12:54 PM

Interesting post. Everyone has different expectations and ideas of what is acceptable, and that of course varies with how much you have paid too. I have purchased a cue from one of the top cue makers and it is faultless and a credit to the builder of that cue.

Sometime prior to this i had ordered a cue from one of the less expensive english cue makers and was a little disappointed - personally its my belief that the cue I received should not have passed quality control in the state it did - the main issue being an extremely rough joint (bad enough to catch your hand on), but also a visible gap/glueline in the splices.

These things are not difficult to spot, im not someone who is overly bothered by aesthetics ( splices matching top and bottom etc), im more concerned with how a cue plays. But what i received should never have been sent to a customer. I returned the cue (at my cost - in this instance i feel that the maker should have footed the bill as these werent alterations, but a faulty product) and it was sorted. (now id just sort them myself, but i didnt know then what i know now)

**Watford** · 31 July 2008, 01:07 PM

I think you do have to weigh up who the cue is from.
But bad customer service is bad customer service.
I feel that those of us who are independant should feel free to say what we think and everybody iss free to disagree.
I've said a couple of things about some makers in the past.

***Oldgit*** · 31 July 2008, 02:00 PM

I think the most important thing is good communication and feedback between cuemaker and customer. Over the years I have had handmade cues made for me by nearly all of the UKs cuemakers and some are really passionate and make it a joy to do business with. Amongst these I have to say that Trevor White, John Parris, Kevin Muncaster (NW Cues) Dave Brown (Craftsman) and Robert Osborne are the best that I have dealt with. They were all a pleasure to deal with and obviously love making cues. They also make it so easy to either visit them or to discuss by telephone your exact needs and this really does make a huge difference.

Really, I think that it comes down to 'you get what you pay for'. I am probably the most fussy 'ba****d' that its possible to be, I have specified exact tapers, sizes, weights etc and again, obviously, if you are as exact in your specification then you must expect to pay extra. It has been wonderful to actually visit each different cuemaker, see examples of their work, discuss your cue and then wait for the finished article.

My own personal favourite cuemaker both to deal with and for accuracy and finish is the Forums own Trevor White. The finish that he gets on his ash cues is unbelievable and he is a nice guy as well. Mind you, he is harder to contact than Lord Lucan when you are desperately trying to pin him down for a date for your latest masterpiece.......HINT HINT Trevor!!!!!

Oldgit

**archalf1471** · 31 July 2008, 02:36 PM

Trevor has been sighted in Bridgend on the back of Shergar recently!!!

**Darth_Spud** · 31 July 2008, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by Oldgit View Post

Mind you, he is harder to contact than Lord Lucan when you are desperately trying to pin him down for a date for your latest masterpiece.......HINT HINT Trevor!!!!!

ROFL, Tell me about it!

This is a good thread; I agree that if a customer finds a product unsatisfactory due to bad workmanship then I see no problem complaining. It’s the same if you bought a TV with a scratch or crack - you would obviously complain, as this is not satisfactory. I would however say that for the person that does come on here and complain about shoddy workmanship, they will be met with biased forum members who will probably stick up for the cue maker, especially the two most well known on here (Mike, Trevor) that’s nothing to do with them but I have noticed people are quick to defend Trevor and Mike even though the complainer may be sitting at his computer with the inferior cue right in front of him!

**archalf1471** · 31 July 2008, 05:26 PM

" I would however say that for the person that does come on here and complain about shoddy workmanship, they will be met with biased forum members who will probably stick up for the cue maker, especially the two most well known on here (Mike, Trevor) that’s nothing to do with them but I have noticed people are quick to defend Trevor and Mike even though the complainer may be sitting at his computer with the inferior cue right in front of him!"

I have no problem with anyone sticking up for their favourite cuemaker or someone who has delivered excellent service and product to the individual, I get defensive over persons that I regard to be the best and would willingly fight their corner in the eternal argument over who is the best cuemaker out there.

I do however believe in an even playing field and the opportunity to say "X" sent me a crap cue that had uneven splices, chips out of it, a dodgy protruding badge, an SD joint that was not flush to the butt, or a poorly fitted ferrule as standard if hyperthetically that were the case, which would be very poor form if it were true, if I so chose to....

**MikeWooldridge** · 31 July 2008, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by Darth_Spud View Post

I would however say that for the person that does come on here and complain about shoddy workmanship, they will be met with biased forum members who will probably stick up for the cue maker, especially the two most well known on here (Mike, Trevor) that’s nothing to do with them but I have noticed people are quick to defend Trevor and Mike even though the complainer may be sitting at his computer with the inferior cue right in front of him!

mmm, it's natural for a person to show bias towards their chosen purchase. they've taken the time and effort to make their decision and they're happy to recommend said product.

i doubt archalf1471 or anyone else is sitting in front of their computer with an inferior cue of mine. or trevor's for that matter.

methinks, the reference is aimed elsewhere....

there are rogues out there, and it's not fair on an unsuspecting person to spend (waste) his/her hard earned cash with the wrong person when there may be somebody out there with alternative information that may have prevented the buyer from basically throwing their money down the drain.

if you see bad work, tell the forum.

**Darth_Spud** · 31 July 2008, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by mikewooldridge View Post

i doubt archalf1471 or anyone else is sitting in front of their computer with an inferior cue of mine. or trevor's for that matter.

Sorry, I meant in general, I'm not saying for one second that you and Trevor make shoddy cues quite the opposite in-fact - all I'm saying is that if a customer was unhappy with a cue because of an obvious flaw and was to post their views on the work done, I have a feeling that (depending on the cue makers popularity on TSF) that person would be shot down with fanboy members claiming that its nonsense or that it simply didn’t come from the cue maker even though that person maybe in front of his cue actually looking at the shoddy details. I may be totally wrong but I have noticed a bias towards certain cue makers on TSF. You and Trevor have a massive fan base on here, a certain percentage of which would be biased in defence of your reputation - If either one of you did manage to produce a cue that the customer was unhappy with and decided to post (unlikely) I suspect there would be biased defence...

Originally Posted by archalf1471 View Post

I have no problem with anyone sticking up for their favourite cuemaker or someone who has delivered excellent service and product to the individual, I get defensive over persons that I regard to be the best and would willingly fight their corner in the eternal argument over who is the best cuemaker out there.

So even though (in this example) a popular cue maker has indeed produced an inferior product, people will defend "their corner" just on their own experience, which in this case is irrelevant since we are dealing with a different customer/experience. Whether you think this is right or wrong is up to the reader of this post but I personally think that if someone did complain, most of these "fanboys" will come to the rescue of the cue maker with a totally subjective argument which will not be relevant the complainers own experience.

Originally Posted by mikewooldridge View Post

if you see bad work, tell the forum.

Good advice on what to do but if carried out it opens a can of worms I feel…

**snooker warrior** · 1 August 2008, 11:09 AM

i think if i were to recieve a cue from trev or mike or parris that had what i considered a flaw or shoddy workmanship i would firstly contact the maker , just to check i have recieved the right cue or that there has not been a mistake made , but i have never heard any bad reports of a wooldridge or a white cue but i have heard some bad reports of parris cues and not just the reports on this forum ,, infact the parris ambassador cue i am using at the moment (my mates cue) is 11 years old and is a good one only two chevrons and tight grain, and the finish is what you would expect,,but my mates parris is an awfull example , not a great shaft,and the finish is poor and that was made within the last year , i think trev and mike are still in full control of there cue making proccess from start to finish ( correct me if i am wrong guys) and i doubt that a cue leaves mike or trevs workshop without being inspected ,this is where parris differs i know he has people working for him who oversea most of the cue making this could be why some poor examples slip through and i also think that he is maybe guilty of trading on his reputation he has for maybe the last 3/4 years ,,,,,,,,this is just my own personal view

**MikeWooldridge** · 1 August 2008, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Darth_Spud View Post

fanboy members

lol...

imo, the biggest problem are the people who have no idea what they are talking but like to keep their post numbers up....

that's aimed at nobody in particular but i think there are more of them on here than cuemaker 'fanboys'.

Originally Posted by Darth_Spud View Post

I may be totally wrong but I have noticed a bias towards certain cue makers on TSF. You and Trevor have a massive fan base on here, a certain percentage of which would be biased in defence of your reputation - If either one of you did manage to produce a cue that the customer was unhappy with and decided to post (unlikely) I suspect there would be biased defence...

mmm, i see what you're saying, but i think you're answering your own questions/doubts in a roundabout way here. the fact we both appear to have very loyal, and happy, customers is cos we tend to deliver quality, dare i say, every time.

actually me and trevor were discussing quality yesterday. we set our standards so high that sometimes we hold stuff back cos we're worried it's not good enough. then every now and then we see something made by someone else, and we can't believe how bad it is. then we wonder why we beat ourselves up over the tiniest stupid little thing that 99.9% of people would never notice anyway...

so, i think it's more than a passing coincidence that you seldom hear comments other than good ones about either of us.

but bias is a funny word. what i mean is there is good and bad bias.

bad bias would be a retailer who only sells a certain washing machine for example. they will try to get you to buy that washing machine regardless of whether it is the best one for you. bad bias. bad, bad bias...

good bias is the retailer who deals with all the manufacturers and tells you which one is the best performer based on their actual experience of dealing with all of them over a period of time. good bias. very good bias...

my point here is that when you use the word bias, it implies bad bias. whereas, in my experience, many of the people on this forum have first hand experience of many, if not all the cuemakers, so their comments should be heeded and not dismissed as some crazy 'fanboy' rant.

Originally Posted by Darth_Spud View Post

So even though (in this example) a popular cue maker has indeed produced an inferior product, people will defend "their corner" just on their own experience, which in this case is irrelevant since we are dealing with a different customer/experience. Whether you think this is right or wrong is up to the reader of this post but I personally think that if someone did complain, most of these "fanboys" will come to the rescue of the cue maker with a totally subjective argument which will not be relevant the complainers own experience.

it's all hypothetical, but john parris is the world's most popular cuemaker, so based on this forum, i would expect to constantly hear from 'fanboys'...

Originally Posted by Darth_Spud View Post

Good advice on what to do but if carried out it opens a can of worms I feel…

lol. no, bring on the worms. i get the impression archalf1471 is not talking about minor issues, but major, glaring faults. not from mass produced cues, but from so-called reputable cue makers.

in which case it is only fair that a warning is passed on, lest another unfortunate chap wastes his hard earned...

***Oldgit*** · 1 August 2008, 11:25 AM

I think that the mass produced Parris cues range from the very good to the very bad and my advice would be to make the trip to his shop in London before buying one of these, that way at least its possible to choose whatever you fancy from his current stock.

The best Parris cues (obviously) are the 'Special', 'Paragon' and 'Ultimate' as then you really do get EXACTLY what you ask for.

Oldgit

**archalf1471** · 1 August 2008, 01:54 PM

Absolutely MW, you guys can every so often make a small error maybe down to communication between customer and maker, i know I hace caused untold problems with starting off with one spec and changing it through the process. I guess its not unheard off to perhaps have 1/4 oz here or 1/4 inch there.

But as Mike alludes to glaring schoolboy lazy errors from renowned, experienced cuemakers in to my mind is not acceptable and that is what I am refering to. And with such a forum where you begin to realise the world is a pretty small place word often gets round and reputations could be tarnished, if not already!

**keith auld** · 2 August 2008, 04:14 PM

I really didn't want to get involved in this one - because shooting someone down in this business is very easy - I suppose that the more cues you make or market the more likely someone will find fault - over the past 2 weeks I've had cues come into me for repair or modification from both the far east and uk - in all I've had cues made by everyone mentioned in the snooker forum amongst these there have been 7 from one maker alone, 3 of which I've had to re-build and 1 had been so poorly made, that the ash selected was so open grained it looked like a maple cue and half an inch of ebony had been glued to the butt end and turned and in doing so the maker had sold this cue to the customer as a 58 1/2" cue instead of either making a new one or re-splicing the cue. I have subsequently spliced 4 additional maple and ebony splices on for this customer, but am in a quandry about putting a name plate on it. In effect I have re-made this cue for the guy, but wouldn't want to be associated with an ash shaft of that poor a quality. Subsequently I will leave it unbadged, this will do the original maker a favour, not tar me with that brush and leave the customer with an infinitely better cue.
IMO some of the cuemakers seem to suffer from an inferiority complex and are to ready to ridicule others in order to hide their own deficiencies. We are all human, we all have good and bad days, we all have to make money and are all guilty of sending out cues, that we know have a flaw, however small, but through our ability are able to disguise. These are not major problems that would impair the cues ability to perform, minly they are cosmetic. I recently believed that I'd come across a lacquer that would work well on a cue, as it turned out it didn't, I offered all my customers who'd had that finish an opportunity to return the cues to me and I would strip, re-seal, oil and repolish them and pay their postal costs as well. I was trying to do something new, sometimes they work, sometimes they don't, but if you don't try to improve all the time, you stagnate.
So you see, cuemakers have their dilemmas as well, I recently sent out a consignment that was made to look antique, in accordance with my customers wishes; most of these are now coming back to be stripped and taken back to their original colour, then sealed, oiled and polished. Under these circumstances it's not your fault and you can only do what your customer requires.
As many of you will know, I run a cuemaking workshop every year around this time and had intended to do so again this year, there has been a lot of interest in this and I think it's a good way for the uninformed to become informed about the vagaries of cuemaking, however, as things stand at the moment, I'll be handmaking cues on the show stand of one of the exhibitors at the EXPO exhibition in Shanghai later this year, to illustrate the art of cuemaking; so if you want to come to this years masterclass, it's a lot futher than ususal I'm afraid; but the thought has just occured to me that, given the importance of the far eastern market, it would be a novel way to fly the flag of British Handmade cues if perhaps Trevor, Mike, Dave Brown, Rob Osborne, John Parris, O'Min's representative, myself and others that I may have missed, were to compete over there to make a genuine handmade cue in front of all the visitors and exhibitors alike, armed only with our favourite hand planes and all using same pool of equipment, namely, bandsaw, table saw and belt sander.
The winning cue could be selected and judged by one of the top Chinese players and the winning cue could together with the maker, get all the publicity that that would involve in China and could appear at the World Championships and the cue given as the viewers prize
This would surely satisfy the curiosity of the forum members as to an idea of skill of the individual cue makers they hear or reabout as well as being the biggest boost for sales of the winners cues throughout the world. Mind you, perhaps some of our illustrious makers don't genuinely make by hand, and I imagine would they would be far from happy to show their inablity to match skills they don't possess, and would protest loud and long over a build off

**trevs1** · 2 August 2008, 05:13 PM

Well, I for one would merrily stand shoulder to shoulder with ANYONE in making a cue using the methods you state Keith, no problem whatsoever.

By the way, I have something to discuss with you, is it ok to PM you in a moment?

Ta.

Announcement

bad cues

bad cues

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment