Pocket size for beginners

[Terry Davidson]

The chap who likes the tight pockets is the one I would want in my team. Ambitious for accuracy is what it's all about, not just bigger breaks made on easy tables. When these folk go to a league match on a tight table, they'll get found out. I'd take a 50 on a Star over a ton on an easy table. If you play on tight tables, you can compare your standard to the pros. You can't do that on easy tables so it's much harder to know how good you are.

I'm not talking about league players or top amateurs or pros. I'm talking about the average guy who comes into a club to have a few frames and enjoy himself without having to struggle to pot a ball. So what if he can't compare himself to a pro? Does he really give a crap?

[thommo335]

This is exactly what happens with every club that decided to bring their pockets out. They have to understand they will have to do all their tables unless the want to specifically exempt one as a 'match' tables. Players will always gravitate to the more generous pockets.

The chap who likes the tight pockets is the one I would want in my team. Ambitious for accuracy is what it's all about, not just bigger breaks made on easy tables. When these folk go to a league match on a tight table, they'll get found out. I'd take a 50 on a Star over a ton on an easy table. If you play on tight tables, you can compare your standard to the pros. You can't do that on easy tables so it's much harder to know how good you are.

The thread isn't about team players and comparison to pros, its about beginners. ..and how they can be encouraged to play and get some pleasure from a difficult game.
Akin to 28 handicap golfers playing the tournament tees and wondering why no one wants to play anymore . Both games take time practice and dedication to get something out of them but both are dying.

[barrywhite]

The thread isn't about team players and comparison to pros, its about beginners. ..and how they can be encouraged to play and get some pleasure from a difficult game.
Akin to 28 handicap golfers playing the tournament tees and wondering why no one wants to play anymore . Both games take time practice and dedication to get something out of them but both are dying.

Then the answer is easy pockets for beginners. Which equates to the width of a credit card plus half an inch. That's a club size pocket in my area. Credit card or less is a proper table. But easy is why they play pool instead, on the big pocket 9-ball tables or the little 8-ball tables with tighter pockets but less travel to pot. Britons are giving up sport in huge numbers, across the board. We're a land of sofa spuds unfortunately. Things that take time and discipline aren't attractive in an instant fix, fast digital world. So yeah, I agree, getting anyone to play snooker is a bonus regardless of table.

[Ramon]

speaking in General,,
If u want sumone enjoying this game, teach him not to think about the size of the pockets at all.
No matter , 3.5 / 3.8 / or 8" big pockets ,, after few potts , your eyes get used to it and then the big pockets seem exactly as small as tight pockets to ur eyes .
Just like sumone who's gonna play US pool , after he has played a few freams snooker. in the first half hour, he can pott very well cus those pockets seems biger to his eyes . But after few mints , he is gonna miss cus his eyes get used to the size of those big US pool pockets .
As long as a player keep thinking about the size of the pockets ( at the time of striking the CB ), he can never enjoy or improve in this game.
To thinking that the pockets are biger , So i'm gonna play better : IS JUST A MYTH

[Geoff Large]

It would make my life a lot easier to have all tables with the same size pocket openings and falls and undercut.

but in this world of informity that is never going to happen

World snooker for instance will not allow their star templates anywhere near any other fitters apart from their own , without these templates how are you going to expect normal clubs who have their tables maintained by fitters without the proper templates.

I have asked through contacts to see if I can get a set even on yearly rental like we used to get from the old sets issued in the 1980s /90s by the WPSA
But they still insist no one gets them but their fitters.

So we have to guess by copying the openings from actual tables that have been set at the Star Table openings which is slightly less than the old templates at 3.5 inch

but going back in time when Billiards and snooker was at it's peak when no TV was around , most where set at Billiards openings of around 3.1/4 inch , how would you like playing on those tables ?
over the years they have been opened up and have been around 3.5 to 3.5/8ths
if everyone cut pockets to these sizes then they will accommodate the tight and not so tight pockets but never bucket openings of 3.3/4 and above .
I once was instructed for a chain of Snooker clubs to open all the tables up to 4 inch at the fall , they say the MAJORITY of players like large openings and they are correct .

it is just the few that demand match pockets to test themselves

another thing you may want to take on board is steel cushions are on all Pro tables the majority of tables in the UK are normal wood cushions with around just 5% steel cushions to 95% normal cushions
and this does have an effect at the pocket fall and the opening and what happens to the rubber after the fall some can be opened up after the fall some get tighter .

I get this a lot from semi pro and pro players who demand this and that about pocket openings on standard club tables they play in , when I say it cannot be done unless they have steel cushions do they believe me ?
NO they get another firm in who tell them exactly the same
this happened at a local Academy that I was maintaining the tables for

Just remember 95% are standard tables out there the majority of them cannot have the templates put into them because of woodwork closing in after the fall

[thommo335]

The thread isn't about team players and comparison to pros, its about beginners. ..and how they can be encouraged to play and get some pleasure from a difficult game.
Akin to 28 handicap golfers playing the tournament tees and wondering why no one wants to play anymore . Both games take time practice and dedication to get something out of them but both are dying.

Then the answer is easy pockets for beginners. Which equates to the width of a credit card plus half an inch. That's a club size pocket in my area. Credit card or less is a proper table. But easy is why they play pool instead, on the big pocket 9-ball tables or the little 8-ball tables with tighter pockets but less travel to pot. Britons are giving up sport in huge numbers, across the board. We're a land of sofa spuds unfortunately. Things that take time and discipline aren't attractive in an instant fix, fast digital world. So yeah, I agree, getting anyone to play snooker is a bonus regardless of table.

Agreed. ..anything less than instant mastery and folk give up and do the virtual alternative where reset is a button away. The Olympic legacy is alive and well. ....

[barrywhite]

Agreed. ..anything less than instant mastery and folk give up and do the virtual alternative where reset is a button away. The Olympic legacy is alive and well. ....

The steward who runs a club I play at likes pool on the iPad. When I asked if said steward plays pool upstairs, I got a look aghast. Imagine if I'd asked if the steward plays a frame of snooker now and then?

@Geoff Large: is one of the reasons WS won't let folk have the template is because WS fear anyone knowing what Alex Higgins always said? That the centuries we see now aren't just down to better players practising harder?

Easy tables aren't all bad, there's a lot of fun to be had practising on a proper table, rocking up to a club with an easy and hitting a big break. You know it's not real because would that ball that wobbled and dropped in the middle of the break really have dropped on a tighter table? But it's still fun, and smiling is good no matter what your standard.

[Chappy5]

but going back in time when Billiards and snooker was at it's peak when no TV was around , most where set at Billiards openings of around 3.1/4 inch , how would you like playing on those tables ?
over the years they have been opened up and have been around 3.5 to 3.5/8ths

I was told this exact same thing by my table maker and my pockets are exactly 3 and 1/4 inches ( or 80mm ) wide! He still makes tables today at this exact pocket opening and like he says to me " That's what they are meant to be " !! He is very old school though and has a 150yr tradition of table making in Australia who is regarded as our best.

I love it though although she is tight and would i ever think of opening them up?? Not a chance and if you hit the ball right it will drop no problem and will accept long rail shots no problems.











Those are Pics with 1G Balls.

[Terry Davidson]

I believe the IBSF templates are at 83mm (maybe 85mm) whilst the B&SCC were always 3.5" which is right about 84mm or so. Having tables tighter than template just doesn't make any sense as all the club owner is doing is frustrating the many weaker players in favour of the few better players who like tighter tables as they can watch (and laugh) as the shots are missed. For a club owner that is self-defeating since most of his customers will be the less-skilled players.

I once had a club owner brag to me when holding a big tournaments 'no one will make a century on these tables' and sure enough no one did and the table fitter told me he had them adjust to 3.25" and it was almost impossible to make the pink in the middle off its spot.

Now I gotta ask the players on here who say they want the tables to be tighter - is that really snooker and is it something the casual player will enjoy and come back for more? It doesn't effect you because you'll always be there but someone has to start thinking about bringing new blood into the game and one way to help that is to have tables with more generous pockets.

[tetricky]

I........Now I gotta ask the players on here who say they want the tables to be tighter - is that really snooker and is it something the casual player will enjoy and come back for more? It doesn't effect you because you'll always be there but someone has to start thinking about bringing new blood into the game and one way to help that is to have tables with more generous pockets.

I suppose it depends on the mentality of the person.

I know when I started the game, the challenge of hitting the ball into the pocket was something that appealed to me. I always found it unsatisfying for a ball to be hit in the general direction of the pocket, and it drop anyway, even when I knew it wasn't a good shot.

Anything normal range is fine....but I have as much an aversion to great big buckets, as I do to something too tight. I always played 'match tables' because I preferred to be practising under 'normal' conditions. I don't believe that players will be retained long term in the game because they are playing into buckets. It's a game that demands skill, precision, and control. If that doesn't appeal to you an extra quarter of an inch on the pocket wont change your mind.

I also think 'match tables' help retain that balance between safety play, and break building (a fair contest between bat and ball, if you see what I mean). If someone can chip them in over distance from anywhere, it means they don't bother to learn good safety, and they have an advantage over a player for whom safety is part of their skill set and armoury.

I actually think the regularity of high scoring and the demise of safety play has been part of the dwindling popularity of the game. I often fast forward through breaks, and only watch the bits of frames where people are not in. Watching people play immaculate position and a string of high breaks can trivialise the level of skill required.

Why muck around with the game so that people think it's easy, and get frustrated if they can't do that?

Now, okay, my point of view might not be the majority one....but I like to struggle, I like to see pro's struggle occasionally. I miss the days where an opportunity wasn't always a frame winning one, and the dynamic of tension meant that players had to dig mentally deep and fin a way to win. Post-Hendry it's throw the kitchen sink at stuff, you win if it works, you lose if it doesn't. No biggie, on to the next PTC.

It's more of a spectacle, but less of an event, these days. Every shot used to matter. I miss the days of the likes of Griffiths and Thorburn gradually taking each other to bits, piece by piece.

That was Becket. These days it's all Benny Hill.

[Terry Davidson]

Well tetricky...it's not about you and what you like. You can find your own club with tighter tables and I'm sure you and your snooker mates will love every second of it until the club closes through lack of business.

This string is about getting suggestions on pocket size for the AVERAGE player. This type of player will soon get frustrated with the tighter tables. Besides which I'm not advocating much of a change in pocket openings. A tighter table is at 3.25" and a generous table would be around 3.65" or so but also perhaps undercut a bit.

If a player starts out making the odd ball and not getting frustrated then he comes back, he maybe buys a cue, perhaps he takes some lessons, maybe he would like to try out for the league team. That is what it's all about.

Play on your tighter tables and enjoy CT & TG playing safety until 3am bu I think the larger number of players out there are average players who wouldn't enjoy that and those are the players we have to encourage to come out and play regularly. And yes, even the women too.

[tetricky]

It's not working though is it?

The pro's are always scoring heavily, the number of centuries and maximums is mind-boggling, in a historical context. Very few people are playing snooker, and almost no young players. They go to the club, play against an average player, miss because they can't even hit a bucket, and get their arses kicked. They don't fall for the game, because what they play is so far removed from what they see being played. A big bucket makes little difference if you're six inches away from a pot.

[ace man]

I agree that biggest possible pockets are the right way to go for beginner players who want to take the game serious.
However, other factors are much more important than pocket size. Overall maintenance being #1. If the table is very slow and is in a cold humid room, never brushed, never covered nor ironed, balls used are dirty...etc...it will be very very difficult to play on it even if it had bigger than normal pockets.

[barrywhite]

I agree that biggest possible pockets are the right way to go for beginner players who want to take the game serious.
However, other factors are much more important than pocket size. Overall maintenance being #1. If the table is very slow and is in a cold humid room, never brushed, never covered nor ironed, balls used are dirty...etc...it will be very very difficult to play on it even if it had bigger than normal pockets.

Spot on! Everyone, no matter what standard will enjoy a frame more on a brushed, blocked and ironed table and be likely to return. I BBIed a table today, like a new suit. Just putting your hand on that cloth; proper!

@Terry; SWSA famed for tight pockets, tighter than WS template anyway, perhaps the true Star template; is this the club in your thoughts?

@tetricky, it is what it is bud. Folk are lazy, no matter what the pocket size, snooker is a discipline that is time consuming, 8hrs a day for the pros. Snooker's halcyon snooker hall days in the 80s and 90s were down to a lack of tv/satelite/internet alternatives, an attitude to get up and go out. Now the spuds like the sofa, no chance of getting the obese masses moving mate. It's painful to see clubs close but I really can't think of anyway of stopping it. As for the pros hitting loads of big breaks on telly; that's down to the slack WS template IMO, the Worlds at the Crucible being the worst offender. If you practice on a true star, those WS tables are buckets for the pros afterwards!

[tetricky]

I absolutely agree with you. I just don't agree that opening up the bags suddenly makes the game more enjoyable and has the feckless hordes streaming through the doors.

All participation in sport is down. There are competing forms of entertainment. Pubs and clubs are open all day, so you don't have to go to a members club for out of hours action. People lack the patience for gatherings that have a high social barrier to entry (people don't get to know things, or join groups or clubs), they want to be able to be able to dip in when they feel like it on equal terms.

In my view, if you want to get people into snooker you have pool tables, pool teams, and an open social scene where everyone gets involved. Then you tell people that if they really want to improve their pool, they need to learn the accuracy and control of snooker.

The most popular, famous, and many would argue the most entertaining game of snooker of all time was littered with misses and mistakes. The final black took eight shots, and included several misses. Would it really have been better if the initial double on the black had gone in, or taking it further if Davis hadn't missed the green in frame 9?

No, I don't believe big bags will solve anything. I don't believe it makes the game better, or more entertaining, or more fun. I think if beginners get used to that, then fewer will progress from that level. You don't make someone a great golfer, by making them only play pitch and putt.

The problem that snooker has is that it's a game that requires a lot of investment - from someone installing and maintaining a table, to paying it's way, to learning to play it. My favourite snooker room locally has just recently been converted into a pub dining room. It makes more money. You don't change any of that by making the bags a bit bigger.

It's people that need to change, not the game. It's the surroundings....the table conditions have to be premium....so that there is nothing like it. Make people feel special for playing snooker. That will keep it alive. Not dumbing it down so it's nothing special.

...and hope to hell that Barry Hearn does something amazing with develoing the game at the elite level...because unless people aspire to play, they wont bother, and the facilities will be whittled away to nothing.