Rule change

[SnkrRef]

So, we're nearly six weeks on from the OP. Is there any more news on what the IBSF were proposing?

[tommygunner1309]

At the moment I can only find the "ball played from anywhere on the table" only applies to the IBSF 6 red competitions as 100-uper has pointed out. Derek Budde has returned to reffing professional matches again, and we have been out of contact for a time, but with an SRA meeting coming up shortly, I will be sure to find out the exact position.

[franksandellsnooker]

Hi. Tommy. I rarely comment on rules which seem to me after all these years to be about right. However I have always had an argument with the rule regarding a drawn game!!!!. I believe that the player in strike who pots the black to draw on points should remain IN STRIKE as he has not missed. The black should be respotted and if he pots it he wins. If the draw is as a result of his opponents foul the non striker returns to the table and either plays from where the balls lie or puts his opponent in again as standard rules.
As an example of what I believe to emphasise this scenario - 6 reds left. 75 0n table striker leads 75 -0. His opponent snookers him and he then fouls giving (say) 4 - non striker comes back pots brilliant red and then green - from green breaks into reds and clears with all blacks and all the colours to draw the game - Audience go wild - huge applause. For his brilliance he is then rewarded by the ref. placing the black on the spot. He loses the toss and opponent puts him in. He breaks 0ff again!!! and then loses the game.
Surely having reached the drawn score and not missed a shot his break and therefore his turn has not ended and he should be able to get position on the black and pot it to win the game. If he misses then as under the rules game continues until either a score or foul occurs.
I have seen similar things actually happen!!!! F.

[vmax4steve]

Hi. Tommy. I rarely comment on rules which seem to me after all these years to be about right. However I have always had an argument with the rule regarding a drawn game!!!!. I believe that the player in strike who pots the black to draw on points should remain IN STRIKE as he has not missed. The black should be respotted and if he pots it he wins. If the draw is as a result of his opponents foul the non striker returns to the table and either plays from where the balls lie or puts his opponent in again as standard rules.

Would 'remaining in strike as he has not missed' also apply to a player who pots the final pink to lead by over seven points but leaves himself angled on the black ??

[DeanH]

Would 'remaining in strike as he has not missed' also apply to a player who pots the final pink to lead by over seven points but leaves himself angled on the black ??

Yes, he would still the striker in play and could play the Black if he wished but as more that seven points are required, does not have to play the Black, so it is End of Frame and Turn is over; where in the score-level after last Black game it is not End of Frame.
I see where Frank is coming from and like the idea he mentions but doubt if it will be applied.

[mythman69]

Yes, he would still the striker in play and could play the Black if he wished but as more that seven points are required, does not have to play the Black, so it is End of Frame and Turn is over; where in the score-level after last Black game it is not End of Frame.
I see where Frank is coming from and like the idea he mentions but doubt if it will be applied.

If angled, they could also play the black and miss but given they are more than 7 points ahead it would be a 7 point foul and end of frame anyway.

[DeanH]

If angled, they could also play the black and miss but given they are more than 7 points ahead it would be a 7 point foul and end of frame anyway.

yep that is correct, being over seven ahead means the Striker can decide whether to play the Black or not.
I wish in the rules it explicitly stated that a Player more than seven ahead does not have to play the last Black, currently it is only implied.

[tommygunner1309]

Hi Frank Thanks for the reply. Yes I see your point about the striker remaining in strike after the black has been respotted, but in conversation with some other refs the general opinion seems to be that the frame is "ended" when the black is potted to bring the scores level, and effectively, the respotted black is seen as a sort of "restart" and is better decided by the toss of a coin.
I myself, have no opinion on this - but all I will say is that if I pot the final black and scores are level - I always hope to win the toss to put my opponent back in - I hate playing the black from in hand - in case I put it over a pocket. Of course, I am no Ronnie O'Sullivan and maybe being a poor player that makes me biased - but I would like to know what the pro's think about this one.

In a recent BHRA competition I reached the final against Dave Dawson. In the final frame I was 13 behind with 13 on the table and sank pink and black. Respotted black - I lost the toss and was put in. Usually I play black up and down but had no confidence in myself or my safety play so decided to go for the difficult cut to left pocket, I reasoned that if I got close and rattled the jaws, the black would return to middle of top cushion and the white would return to baulk.

I missed the black altogether ------ a horrible way to lose a final and a huge blow to my confidence -- but a lesson learned.

[SnkrRef]

yep that is correct, being over seven ahead means the Striker can decide whether to play the Black or not.
I wish in the rules it explicitly stated that a Player more than seven ahead does not have to play the last Black, currently it is only implied.

I suggest you read 2.1(b) where this point IS stated explicitly!

1. Frame
A frame of snooker comprises the period of the play from the start (see Section 3 Rule 3(c)), with all the balls set as described in Section 3 Rule 2, each player playing in turn until the frame is completed by:
(a) concession by any player during his turn;
(b) claim by the striker when; Black is the only object ball remaining on the table, aggregate points are not relevant, and there is a difference of more than seven points between the scores in his favour;
(c) the final pot or foul when; Black is the only object ball remaining on the table (see Section 3 Rule 4); or
(d) being awarded by the referee under Section 3 Rule 14(c) (ii) or Section 4 Rule 2.

[SnkrRef]

Hi Frank Thanks for the reply. Yes I see your point about the striker remaining in strike after the black has been respotted, but in conversation with some other refs the general opinion seems to be that the frame is "ended" when the black is potted to bring the scores level, and effectively, the respotted black is seen as a sort of "restart" and is better decided by the toss of a coin.
I myself, have no opinion on this - but all I will say is that if I pot the final black and scores are level - I always hope to win the toss to put my opponent back in - I hate playing the black from in hand - in case I put it over a pocket. Of course, I am no Ronnie O'Sullivan and maybe being a poor player that makes me biased - but I would like to know what the pro's think about this one.

In a recent BHRA competition I reached the final against Dave Dawson. In the final frame I was 13 behind with 13 on the table and sank pink and black. Respotted black - I lost the toss and was put in. Usually I play black up and down but had no confidence in myself or my safety play so decided to go for the difficult cut to left pocket, I reasoned that if I got close and rattled the jaws, the black would return to middle of top cushion and the white would return to baulk.

I missed the black altogether ------ a horrible way to lose a final and a huge blow to my confidence -- but a lesson learned.

Maybe there is a case for the person who pots the last black to tie the frame, or the non-offender on the foul, to have the choice of who plays at a respotted black, without having to toss a coin?

[DeanH]

I suggest you read 2.1(b) where this point IS stated explicitly!

1. Frame
A frame of snooker comprises the period of the play from the start (see Section 3 Rule 3(c)), with all the balls set as described in Section 3 Rule 2, each player playing in turn until the frame is completed by:
(a) concession by any player during his turn;
(b) claim by the striker when; Black is the only object ball remaining on the table, aggregate points are not relevant, and there is a difference of more than seven points between the scores in his favour;
(c) the final pot or foul when; Black is the only object ball remaining on the table (see Section 3 Rule 4); or
(d) being awarded by the referee under Section 3 Rule 14(c) (ii) or Section 4 Rule 2.

doh! - how did I miss that
cheers
but why is this text (and the other sub-sections) not in the End of Frame section?

[DeanH]

Maybe there is a case for the person who pots the last black to tie the frame, or the non-offender on the foul, to have the choice of who plays at a respotted black, without having to toss a coin?

I like that, a fairer option.

[t.lavery55]

"4. End of Frame, Game or Match
(a) When Black is the only object ball remaining on the table, the first
score or foul ends the frame excepting only if the following conditions
both apply:
(i) the scores are then equal; and
(ii) aggregate scores are not relevant"

Hopefully there should be no confusion here but just to clarify in case there is: in the rule quoted above, Section 3 Rule 4, in order for the frame to end in the manner described, Black must also be the ball on, although this point is not explicitly stated in the rules.

For example, suppose, with Pink and Black the only object balls left, the striker pockets the pink but goes in-off. He then gets up from the table, before the referee can retrieve the balls, touching the Black in the process. Even though Black was the only object ball remaining on the table at the time that it was fouled, this would not be end of frame as the foul occurred on the Pink. The correct ruling here would be a seven point foul, re-spot the Pink and have the next player play the Pink from in-hand.

[DeanH]

I would concur with this assessment of this scenario, 7 point foul, pink spotted (only if it was pocketed (not stated in your scenario ), non-offending player Turn, Ball-in-Hand, Pink on.

[tommygunner1309]

Maybe there is a case for the person who pots the last black to tie the frame, or the non-offender on the foul, to have the choice of who plays at a respotted black, without having to toss a coin?

Yes. that is preferable to the toss of a coin. Having potted the last ball on the table, it would be fairer for the advantage to remain with the person in play - so to speak.