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  • #16
    Trevor,
    Thank you so very much for taking the time to explain this topic of throw in a cue, and to share your valuable experience and knowledge with us.
    I was shooting with a John Parris. But I am now using a maple cue, just a really old cue. There is a cue maker here called Kevin Deroo, who bores out the front end of his shafts to reduce deflection. I have tried these shafts, but do not really like them.
    When you apply inside english, do you have to make significant adjustment with your cue? I notice that it is this shot that I need to adjust the most. (e.g. using inside english to get on the black from the pink when I overhit the blue going to the pink.) I is ok when I hot the ball soft or medium speed. But to hit it hard, with inside, is very difficult.
    With regard to throw, I am thinking about the throwing of the object ball. I think the claim of these low deflection shafts were targeted at the squirt of the cue ball, which are a bit different, isn't it?
    If I understand correctly, their claim is about reducing the initial pushing off line of the cue ball with off center strike. However, this will not reduce the swerve effect, nor the throw effect, which happen later.
    By swerve, I am referring to the curving back of the cue ball due to english.
    So, for a shot made with right hand english,, the squirt effect will cause it to go to the left, then the swerve effect will cause it to curve back to the right.
    From the video and the claim on the accurate site, I am under the impression that they say their cue can reduce the effect of squirt (the initial pushing off line of the white). This is achieved by the taper as well as other things that they do. Some US cues such as Predator and OB-1 also claim to achieve this by reducing the weight of the front end--the lighter front end will cause a lesser puching effect on the cue ball, because the shaft end will buckle more. I think the softer taper by Accurate will have more or less the same effect, as it will buckle more upon impact.
    Am I way off here with my understanding of the topic? I am not sure if I really know what happens with off center strike. Please corrct me if I am wrong. Thank you.
    www.AuroraCues.com

    Comment


    • #17
      i have seen a couple of kevin deroo's cues - don't remember them being hollowed out - just a nice old growth maple.
      https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/adr147

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally Posted by ADR147 View Post
        i have seen a couple of kevin deroo's cues - don't remember them being hollowed out - just a nice old growth maple.
        Yes, he does regular maple like the one used by Marco Fu, too. But he also offers a laminated ash and maple shaft with a hollow out front end. If you remove the tip, you will see the hollow end being blocked by an ash disc in a form of a smaller round circle right in the middle of the ferrule cross section.
        He only does butterfly splicing as far as I know. He charges close to or over $1000 for his cues.
        The laminated ash shaft has no chervon because they were all spliced together. The maple looks like a one piece unless you look close enough. He cut them up and then glues them together in the same order of which they were sliced.
        There are three guys in my club with Deroo's cues, and they all bought the laminated shaft with a hollow end.
        Personally, I find them to be quite overpriced for the workmanship.
        www.AuroraCues.com

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        • #19
          yes i got a quote from him once - the price was frightening, i thought i would have a holiday to antigua instead.
          https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/adr147

          Comment


          • #20
            I once saw a Poerglide Connesuier with a laminated shaft, it was ash. I thought I was seeing things initially, but it definitely laminated.

            It played shockingly badly and felt very poor.

            This is nothing to judge other lamintaed shaft cues by I know, but it said something about this one.

            Comment


            • #21
              In fact, I had it to shorten for a guy who wanted to use it for pool (8ball)

              I might still have it here, as I don't think he ever came to collect it.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally Posted by ADR147 View Post
                yes i got a quote from him once - the price was frightening, i thought i would have a holiday to antigua instead.
                Lots of people outside of the Uk do not know any other cue maker other than John Parris. And with Kevin Deroo, he will tell you his cues has lesser deflection, and his joint is made of stainless steel piloted and is therefore better (because according to some, brass flat face will move over time) and so forth. Also, he is quite big in Hong Kong and China because of Marco Fu.
                A guy I know bought 2 cues from him--first one was a plain ebony butterfly spliced, with both extention and a case for about USD$1200, with one of those laminted ash shaft, and his own name disc. The second one has a single face (burl with kingwood? the combination looks quite ugly to me)with some veneers, and it was something like $1500 or a bit more. He then introduced the cue to one guy in my club who, on a very good day may run a 20 if everything are over the holes. This guy ordered one for USD$1600, and waited 3 months. The cue is butterfly spliced, with snakewood splices. He was very pleased, because he could brag about ow much he spent, and he said it really has no deflection. His friend, who was about as good him, saw the cue, and decided to order one more expensive in order to have the most expensive cue in the club. (i.e. my gun is bigger than yours mentality). He ordered one for $1800. again, butterfly splicing, with a couple more veneers, waited about 3 months. They all drove to Kevin Deroo's house, where he ha sa small workshop in his basement with a CNC, and a metal lathe. They are all very proud and satisfied.
                www.AuroraCues.com

                Comment


                • #23
                  Forgot to add, the extention broke after about 1 month on one guy's cue, an he glued it back. It broke again, and then I glued it back for him. The guy also likes to use Moori tip, because Kevin Deroo says it is the best. He had a Moori hard, and it cracked during a miscue. But none of these ever disappointed him--the cue is worth ever single penny, because it has lesser deflection, a very nice stainless steel joint, and his own name disc, plus it is over $1000 so it has to be great!.
                  www.AuroraCues.com

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    splendid stuff - we need more customers like that!
                    https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/adr147

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally Posted by poolqjunkie View Post
                      Trevor,
                      Thank you so very much for taking the time to explain this topic of throw in a cue, and to share your valuable experience and knowledge with us.
                      I was shooting with a John Parris. But I am now using a maple cue, just a really old cue. There is a cue maker here called Kevin Deroo, who bores out the front end of his shafts to reduce deflection. I have tried these shafts, but do not really like them.
                      When you apply inside english, do you have to make significant adjustment with your cue? I notice that it is this shot that I need to adjust the most. (e.g. using inside english to get on the black from the pink when I overhit the blue going to the pink.) I is ok when I hot the ball soft or medium speed. But to hit it hard, with inside, is very difficult.
                      With regard to throw, I am thinking about the throwing of the object ball. I think the claim of these low deflection shafts were targeted at the squirt of the cue ball, which are a bit different, isn't it?
                      If I understand correctly, their claim is about reducing the initial pushing off line of the cue ball with off center strike. However, this will not reduce the swerve effect, nor the throw effect, which happen later.
                      By swerve, I am referring to the curving back of the cue ball due to english.
                      So, for a shot made with right hand english,, the squirt effect will cause it to go to the left, then the swerve effect will cause it to curve back to the right.
                      From the video and the claim on the accurate site, I am under the impression that they say their cue can reduce the effect of squirt (the initial pushing off line of the white). This is achieved by the taper as well as other things that they do. Some US cues such as Predator and OB-1 also claim to achieve this by reducing the weight of the front end--the lighter front end will cause a lesser puching effect on the cue ball, because the shaft end will buckle more. I think the softer taper by Accurate will have more or less the same effect, as it will buckle more upon impact.
                      Am I way off here with my understanding of the topic? I am not sure if I really know what happens with off center strike. Please corrct me if I am wrong. Thank you.

                      Hi Poolqjunkie,

                      No, I make virtually no allowance with my own cue, (when I use it that is), as it allows me to aim at the point of correct of contact, even when applying side to the white ball. Naturally, if you increase the pace of the shot to a ridiculous level, it would push the ball a little but that is to be expected at extreme pace.

                      The shot you refer to on the pink is a typical example of an everyday shot on a snooker table when you've over run position from the blue. With my own, or any good reliable cue that does not require substantial allowance for off-centre striking, you would be able to aim pretty much at the normal potting angle. This takes away, or at the very least, minimises the margin of judgement required to a very small level, which will offer a greater degree of accuracy and consistency.

                      There are many many shots we are confronted by on a snooker table where this is a major issue in relation to the judgement of throw/deflection.
                      A good 'reliable' cue will lessen the scale of judgement required, narrowing it down to a far more controllable level.

                      These 'reliable' cues, will still cause some of the arcing movement you speak of in your post above, BUT, it is confined to a much smaller amount.
                      If anything, it will travel almost straight, with extremely minimal movement from left to right, or vise versa.

                      Finally, I would say that any off centre striking I am referring to above is only relating to the white ball, as this is the only ball which is affected to any discernable or controllable degree when playing with side.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        personally i don't see the big fuss about throw - as long as it throws the same way everytime you can conpensate so what difference does it make - a reliable shaft is what matters not how much it throws. the art of snooker is surely to have a cue that responds the same way every time to the same shots.
                        https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/adr147

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally Posted by ADR147 View Post
                          personally i don't see the big fuss about throw - as long as it throws the same way everytime you can conpensate so what difference does it make - a reliable shaft is what matters not how much it throws. the art of snooker is surely to have a cue that responds the same way every time to the same shots.
                          hear, hear! that's the whole point of buying your own cue - so you get used to it and learn to make the necessary adjustments that make the shot right.

                          non deflective shaft taper patents? bullsh*t more like.

                          a stiff cue will send the cueball off more and a whippy cue will send the cueball along a straighter line.

                          why? cos the shaft gives slightly when the cueball is hit with extreme amounts of side giving the tip more of a chance to 'bite' thereby not sending the cueball skewing offline badly. (actually this is one of the reasons i hate cues that are too stiff. they're horrible to play with and you can forget about playing 'touch' side shots etc., cos they have no 'feel')

                          and anyone can make a shaft thinner. which will make the shaft less stiff and will, in turn, 'deflect' the cueball less. it ain't rocket science....

                          but remember this - when that 'non deflective' shaft sends your cue ball along a 'straighter' line to the target, be ready for the object ball to miss the pocket cos the side will have turned it slightly (dependent on how excessive the side is or how hard you hit it, before anyone comments...)

                          either way, stiff or whippy (or 'non deflective' if you've fallen for that crap), you're still gonna have to adjust your aim and get used to the way your cue reacts, or you will miss the pot.

                          this subject alone does not hold the answer to all you players out there who struggle with side and fail to understand the basic priniciples of what is actually happening to the cueball.

                          i hope i've helped make the issue a little clearer....
                          The Cuefather.

                          info@handmadecues.com

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            To ADR's point above.....

                            Everyone is different I guess, but, many of the greatest players I know, would rather avoid using a cue which pushed the cueball all over the place when they strike off centre. It's one of the most important aspects of what makes a cue reliable, being able to judge shots with the minimum of guesswork, so in that respect, I'd say it makes a fair difference. Also, I would say the art of snooker is getting the balls to do what you want them to do, and that, is more due to the player than the cue. Still, a cue which limits the degree of guesswork, WILL make it easier for those players to achieve that consistently.

                            To Mike's points......

                            I would agree that using your own cue, or at least the same cue whenever you play is the only way to go about it. But, that doesn't mean that it's a good idea to use it if it's an unreliable, shockingly bad cue which makes it more difficult to judge many of your shots.

                            I would also agree that patenting a shaft taper is one of the most ridiculous ideas I've heard in my life. I just can't believe they've done that, it's bizarre.

                            As for stiff cues/whippy cues, and all that stuff.
                            Well, the stiffness or whippyness of any one particular cue is pretty variable to say the least, so where the line is between stiff and whippy, I don't really know, as some are kind of stiff...ish, and some kind of whippy...ish.

                            In my experience, I've found that cues can play just great with quite variable shafts, but, they do seem to be best for something which is fairly middle of the road.
                            I would definitely not agree that whippy cues throw the ball less than stiff cues, and, would argue that point quite strongly. Also, I would not agree that stiff cues have no feel, as a light stiff cue has plenty of feel, against a whippy cue which is really heavy, which can feel really numb on the contact. I think it could be argued that weight and other factors (even the tips we use, as many of us will know) can have a dramatic effect on what 'feel' we get through a cue.

                            On the point of low deflection cues sending the white on a straighter line, that can only be a good thing. I wouldn't tell anyone to be prepared for the object ball to miss the pocket, as if the white has travelled straight and the aim was good, the object ball should find the pocket just peachy.

                            Snooker is a game about straight lines.

                            If you were to ask any 'good' coach, I'm sure they'd say that's the case. The idea of a good technique is to get the player to deliver that cue on a straight plane, which in turn, sends the cueball on a straight plane, which then sends the object ball on a straight plane, hopefully to the pocket. Everything goes in straight lines, from cue, to ball, to ball, to pocket.

                            At the end of the day, with regard to playing with side and the throw of the white ball due to the off centre striking, the cue does make a difference. The whole point of using a cue which minimises that effect is to make less adjustment for your aim, which in turn narrows the margin for error.

                            Finally, I would agree with the fact that these points don't hold the answers for many of those reading this thread, as some may just not be proficient enough to understand much of the issues discussed. But, it does at least offer up some views which may prove interesting for those who do understand it, and ultimately, goes some way to addressing the issues surrounding the concept of these cues.
                            Last edited by trevs1; 14 January 2008, 09:18 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Thank you Mike and Trevor and ADR for your valuable info. I have learned a lot more just from reading your posts.

                              By the way, I do think that if the cue ball is spinning when it hits the object ball, that it will cause the object ball to go off line. I know Steve Davis and Joe Davis both said side do not transfer to the object ball, but I do believe that they do, especially when it is a softer shot. It is one of the thing which I tried to raised in my original post--even if a cue deflects less, if I am striking off center when I intend to hit a plain ball, I will still miss the long ball, just may be to a lesser extend, right? Moreover, the side on the ball will cause me to miss some of the shots. And the lesser deflection will still cause my cu ebll to hit a point other than the correct aiing point--so, the more forgiving claim on unintended side does nto really make sense to me.
                              www.AuroraCues.com

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                I can't believe Steve Davis said that!

                                Side is definitely tranferred to the object ball. All you have to do is line up a straight blue to middle and play the shot with side. If you place the cue ball close to the blue, you will see you make correct contact, but the blue is deflected.

                                There are also high speed videos on this site proving it.

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