Acuerate cues

[Semih_Sayginer]

Side is definitely tranferred to the object ball.

There are also high speed videos on this site proving it.

well said checkside

ive posted a link to that website on these forums a few times so that others can see.....

[ADR147]

yes i thought we had done this already!

[Semih_Sayginer]

yes i thought we had done this already!

many many times ADR, but unfortunately even folk who are some of the best at snooker and other cuesports dont fully understand or know about the physics involved, even though they think they do.

everyones entitled to an opinion, but given the facts you can find on the net of it occuring, and even being able to do it down your local club, still doesnt convince some

[trevs1]

many many times ADR, but unfortunately even folk who are some of the best at snooker and other cuesports dont fully understand or know about the physics involved, even though they think they do.

everyones entitled to an opinion, but given the facts you can find on the net of it occuring, and even being able to do it down your local club, still doesnt convince some

The truth of the matter is that many of the worlds greatest players don't care about the physics of what happens to the balls when they play shots. They know what they want to do, and, they know how to make it happen, that's the long and the short of it.

Personally, I'm not convinced by anything I've seen in the vidoes of the posted link. Can you specifically point one individual video out to me which displays a substsantial amount of side transferred to the object ball?

I'd be keen to see it.

What is evident is that 'some' spin is transferred to the object ball, BUT, whether that spin can be utilised in real practical terms on a table is HUGELY questionable. There might be something worth listening to in the words of the likes of Joe Davies and Steve Davis, after all, they were hardly your typical local club players were they?


The reason players apply side to the white ball is the same as it's always been.........To control and steer the cueball, NOT to regularly help any object ball into the pocket.

[Semih_Sayginer]

first off, i couldnt care less what you believe

2nd, i notice in your post that you admit side is transfered.

thats correct

go find other stuff yourself if you want. im not overly bothered what you believe to be true or not

[cueman]

The reason players apply side to the white ball is the same as it's always been.........To control and steer the cueball, NOT to regularly help any object ball into the pocket.

I think when people refer to using side to help the pot, its not that using side helps the object ball into the pocket as such, but that using side it tends to give a feel or control for certain shots, particularly on club tables.

[checkSide]

Greetings all.

I think that side can definitely be used to help pot an object ball.

I was recently demonstrated this shot down the club by a friend of mine who has been trying to help out my game! lol. A pot on a red was slightly covered by the black. The nearest you could strike the red without fouling the black was dead straight, sending the red into the knuckle. When played with side, a dead straight contact forced the small angle to make the pot.

I am sure shots like these can be witnessed by everyone with their own eyes during practice.

[sunny3909]

Greetings all.

I think that side can definitely be used to help pot an object ball.

I was recently demonstrated this shot down the club by a friend of mine who has been trying to help out my game! lol. A pot on a red was slightly covered by the black. The nearest you could strike the red without fouling the black was dead straight, sending the red into the knuckle. When played with side, a dead straight contact forced the small angle to make the pot.

I am sure shots like these can be witnessed by everyone with their own eyes during practice.

Thats right!Side helps in changing the angle of the object ball.

[trevs1]

I think when people refer to using side to help the pot, its not that using side helps the object ball into the pocket as such, but that using side it tends to give a feel or control for certain shots, particularly on club tables.

I think you might find that people posting here are definitely referring to the side applied to the white helping the object ball into the pocket, that's where the fundamental disagreement lies.

One side of the discussion believes that applied side to the white ball, can, and does transfer to a sufficient level as to noticeably affect the path of the object ball.

The other side of the discussion (Me) believes that side applied to the white is done purely to aid the steering and direction of the white ball. The object ball should, and will, find the pocket just fine, as long as the correct point of contact is made on that object ball.

[ADR147]

umm its a toughy this! - the side is transfered - physics tells us that - what we don't know is how much and how useful, i use side to help balls stick to the cushions etc and i know it helps by experience. but equally of course i use side mostly to aid where the cue ball will finish. in truth i think people are thinking a bit too much about this, most people who play will do it their own way and therefore know how to play a shot to get a result that suits them. I can say for sure that their are top players who do and top players who don't use side because i have been asking!

[trevs1]

first off, i couldnt care less what you believe

2nd, i notice in your post that you admit side is transfered.

thats correct

go find other stuff yourself if you want. im not overly bothered what you believe to be true or not

Semih,

I don't understand the aggressive nature of your post above, is there really any need of that?

I'm just trying to see where these video clips actually point out these effects.

These clips do show the balls pretty well and do give us an interesting view of what the actual contact looks like in slow motion. However, from what I've seen, they aren't that conclusive in bolstering an argument for transferred side. For example, in the video clip numbered HSV.A66 the cueball can be seen transferring some spin to the object ball yes, but it's such a small amount, especially when we can see the amount of spin the cueball is carrying. In this clip we can clearly see the spinning object ball has a very very minimal level of spin at all, as it has not even spun a quarter turn by the time it's going out of the visible frame, which is at least a ball's width of distance. How much would this ball spin when travelling about a metre or so? very little I'd bet, and, probably not enough to have any significant effect on the direction it takes on the cloth. Video clip number HSV.A83 goes to show this even clearer, as the transferred side is incredibly minimal. The motion the object ball is far more effected by is that of moving in the opposite direction of that which the cueball has struck it. The transfer of side is pretty negligable.

And, as for side helping the ball into the pocket, clip number HSV.4.10 shows a cushion shot with the white having had left hand side applied. If the effect of the side were going to help the pot by making the object ball spin, the object ball should be starting to spin in an anti-clockwise direction on contact. It's clear to see that just doesn't happen, instead, the object ball travels pretty much without any real spin at all. The reason the ball will find the pocket is due to the fact that the player has judged the contact pretty well, even thought he has made the white make contact with the cushion first, and, clip the object ball as the cueball leaves the cushion.

If the same shot was played with no side whatsoever, as long as the correct point of contact was made on the object ball, it will always find the pocket.

Finally, I would just say that we all may have differing views on certain subjects, that's a good thing. The reason I post here is to offer up something for those reading to think about, and, to perhaps share some experience I might have which some could find helpful. I don't think it's entirely healthy for everyone here to see one perspective only, especially when it's at the expense of a valid counter-argument. The things I might say are not just on a whim or from the top of my head, they have some foundation.

I'm not trying to be clever, or right, it's just discussion.

[cueman]

Pretty much agree with all of that, believe me, I've experimented a lot with various spins and the only conclusion I can come to is that side transferred (if any), to an object ball will make little to no difference in the path the object ball takes. People might be convinced when say they use side to help the pot, especially when there is not much of the object ball to strike, but this is because the white deviates and throws more than it would had plain ball striking been used.

[poolqjunkie]

Trevor,
How do you think this shot was potted?
http://www.baroc.org/index.php?action=show&no=267
You need to click the play button to watch it. It is very clear to me that the pot was made because side was transferred to alter the course of the yellow ball. What do you think?
You can also use side to alter the angel the cue ball comes off the object ball even when the cue ball does not hit a cushion. On a thick 3/4 ball shot, try to aim it full ball with side, (left if you want it to go into the right pocket and vice versa) and you may even over cut the ball. This is very obvious on sofer shots. This shot is useful to hold the angle on some situations.
I know Steve Davis said in his early video that sides do not transfer, but I am not sure if he still believes that now.
I see what you are saying, that the transfer of side is not significant to alter the direction of the ball; but from my experience, I have to say it does.
I suspect the difference might be due to how different players apply side to the cue ball. Do you shift you bridge, your grip, you elbow ad everything more or less parallel, or do you turn your whole bodyat an angle, which is what I do.
Side is spin and it contains rotational energy. We know this energy will be tranferred upon impact, unless there is absolutely no friction. Therefore, to say spin does NOT transfer at all is wrong. (I know that is not what you said.)
The disagreement is, as I understand it, on whether this transfer is significant enough to alter the direction of the object ball, is that correct?
If so, please review the above link video, and try to figure out how the yellow ball was potted if side cannot alter the path of an object ball significantly.
And I would also like to ask you to line up a short distance straight pot, and then strike the cue ball with both sides (i.e. left and right) with medium or soft speed, to see how the object ball come off. If side does not affect the object ball, and if the cue you use requires very little adjustment (let's try short distance shot so this adjectment is kept to minimum), then we can expect to see that the object ball will go straight no matter which side you apply. How does the object ball react?
If the object ball would go off course on a short distance shot, we can only conclude that it will be deviated more on longer distance. Therefore, if you apply unintentional side on the cue ball, even if you hit your aiming point precisely, you may still miss due to the transfer of side to the object ball.
Going back to my original point, what I tried to say was that a cue cannot help me too much (i.e. more forgiving) if I cannot hit the center of my cue ball even if it has very little deflection, because the pot will still be missed--so, I find the "benefit" of a more forgiving cue when "unintentional" side was applied makes little sense.

[Semih_Sayginer]

trevs

i wasnt being aggresive

ive had this discussion before (with you)

ive came to the conclusion that on this particular subject i dont care at all what you think. if you think thats me being aggresive then thats your opinion, but since its about me i can quite clearly say youre wrong.

as i said, im not bothered about your thoughts on this subject, and so thats why i replied with what i typed.

on purely cue discussion i value your opinion. on this i dont. simple really, and not an aggresive thought or wish towards you.

[trevs1]

Well I guess we'll just have to disagree on it, it's clear we can't see each others point, so it's probably better left that way.

Poolqjunkie, I've replied to your post above by PM, I think it's perhaps the better this thread is not dragged out any more than it already has been.