Keith Auld Cue Review

[platt]

After getting the cue the first thing that stood out was the balance. I measured what had been sent and a everything seemed ok, so a quick change
of the tip fitted (mike wooldridge super) classic tip played in before hand and it was ready for the practise room. After an hour or so playing i was getting no were with this cue yet the shaft seem to be ok there was a nice kick to it. As i was playing the different feeling from holding the butt in hand was wierd there was a roundness to it but a lot of (flat spots). All the splices were level at the top and the shaft seemed ovalish (hope this is a word) in spots.
I let my practise partner look and play with the cue and he never took to it, and seen what i was talking about,
After playing for about 8 hours i found the it was not the cue for me.
The details the keith got are from a Glover B/W champion copy yet they are miles apart in terms of finish the Glovers cue is totally round as i know cue to be.
As Keith and i agreed before i got the cue that if i did no like it he would take it back and true to his word he has, i told him my thought on the cue and he explained the this was because it is all handmade, out of all the handmade cues i bought and sold none had this features.
I found Keith very helpful and nice to deal with and look forward to one day find and using one of his cues i like.

[barracuda911]

As i was playing the different feeling from holding the butt in hand was wierd there was a roundness to it but a lot of (flat spots). All the splices were level at the top and the shaft seemed ovalish (hope this is a word) in spots.
The details the keith got are from a Glover B/W champion copy yet they are miles apart in terms of finish the Glovers cue is totally round as i know cue to be.

I guess that's what Mike and Trevor mean, when they say they would never let an inferior cue leave their workshops.
True, it is 'handmade', but Keith, why, when this a cue that is going to be reviewed on TSF, did you let it 'out'?

[keith auld]

I did this deliberately because I knew that Martin would give an unbiased review - I've tried to attached are pictures of cues being made by hand and by lathe, but can't seem to get them on the site (if someone can tell me how to download pictures as attachments on here, then I'll do so for you all). When the discussion started and all the vitriol was flying about, it was impossible to get people to understand the difference between a handmade and machine made cue. There are people selling there cues as 'handmade' which is clearly not the case. From the attached pictures you'll see that a 3/4 cue shaft, whilst still made and spliced by hand, once jointed allows a reference point (being the turned brass joint) to work to and the butt is turned on a lathe that allows it to be perfectly round.
The one piece however, doesn't have the luxury of datum points, and is entirely rounded and finished with a hand plane. When handplaning ash for example, you get grains meeting that are going in different directions; which means that the hand plane will snag the wood when it hits the grain going in the opposite direction from the way you're planing. This often results in lumps being taken out of the shaft and the only way to correct this is to reverse the direction of planing, on that side. There will always be a natural degree of unevenness at this stage because the plane will always leave a lengthways cutting mark. Cues made on a lathe, or router, aren't effected in this way as the cutter operates against the grain, rather than with it; hence you can always get a round finish. If you have a full length bed on a lathe, capable of taking a 60" cue, then you can achieve perfect roundness on a handmade cue, by putting it in there and sanding it. The trouble with that is back to datum points again as you have to be perfectly central when offering this up to a lathe as anything even slightly off centre will cause the splices to go out of allignment.
All that said - this was the only way to prove that these people that advertise and sell their cues as totally handmade are having you all on. If they were to say 'finished by hand' or stick with just 'handspliced' they would be closer to the truth. That was one of the main reasons that I suggested that these people, bring out their hand planes, and then make their cues alongside me in a public arena and show their abilies or lack of them. Mike Wooldridge telephone me on Saturday last and apart from being his normal beligerent self, asked me to leave this thread alone, I agreed to do so as I really can't be bothered with these people anymore; but following his comment about telling me to 'shut the f*** up' has shown that he can't follow his own advice, so I'm back with the same suggestion - come on Mike, seeing that you're 'handmade cues', get your handplane out and lets get some cuemaking done.
As a follow up to this - all the cues made abroad are done so by lathes, in one form or other - I can even tell you the models and types and how much they cost, if you want, thanks to a very knowledgeable gentleman who I've been conversing with on the net, I to have a state of the art 92" bed lathe specially made for me arriving from America in the next 2 weeks, this will also have the facility to engrave designs (similar to O'Mins') on the cues. However I won't stop making cues by hand for customers who prefer that method

[Mellow Yellow]

i'm sorry if i misunderstand here but.........

You let someone review an inferior cue on purpose, because this is the best you could produce using only handtools? you then attack other cuemakers (indirectly, mike and trevor) for using machinery to assist them (not sure if they do but i'm sure they will clarify), then you state that you have just ordered a bespoke machine to do exactly that for your cues?

And you wonder why you don't get the best reception on here

[keith auld]

There was nothing inferior about the cue - I have it with me at the moment and it's a lovely genuinely handmade cue which I asked Martin to return because I want to use it for myself - what appeals to one player doesn't necessarily appeal to another. That's why so many people send their cue repairs and alterations to me, because they require attention by hand. The machine I have ordered is to produce cues in the same manner as Mike, Trevor, O'Min and others. If people want machine made cues, I'll give them to them, but as I stated, I will continue to make cues by hand, because some people prefer the feel and response you get from them. Perhaps I'll give up doing peoples cue repairs and let someone else pick that up, judging by the large number of cues from all the different makers that find there way into my workshop, someone could make a good living just putting right other peoples mistakes and concentrate on my furniture business and just rely on the large number of cue orders that I currently have, that can be turned out relatively quickly and cheaply by the new machine by a trainee

[Mellow Yellow]

I think the fact that the same qualilty shaft can be turned by machine or totally hand made is your answer, whats the point in hand producing a shaft if its quicker by machine, and if this is the method that mike and trevor use then their reputation on here speaks volumes.

Just beacause this is not the original method does not make it wrong.

Do you still walk everywhere, and fill the bath tub with hot water from a kettle? Do you hand grow all you organic food in your own vegitable patch? Do you make your own pizzas instead of phoning for a take away?

You get my point? if your doing it as a passion then don't put your hand plane away yet, but if your in it for the profit then plug your machines in at the mains.

But just because it is not your prefered way doesn't mean its the wrong way.

[trevs1]

Keith,

I will be direct in my response to your post above, not to attack you, or make clever points, but to clarify my thoughts to all the members and visitors to this website.

When you speak about "There are people selling there cues as 'handmade' which is clearly not the case". I'm assuming you are including me in that yes???

And also, when you mention "this was the only way to prove that these people that advertise and sell their cues as totally handmade are having you all on". I'm assuming you are including me with this also yes???

Now, the thing to my mind is this.........

It is a difficult thing to define exactly what "hand made" truly means.
I say that because if you were making a truly "hand made" cue, you would be cutting the timber from the board "by hand", cutting the taper for the shaft "by hand", cutting your splices from the ebony blank "by hand", making and fitting your ferrules "by hand" and so on and so on.

The simple fact is that "hand made" can mean, something which is made predominently by the hand and skill of a person, and, with a limited amount of mechanised assistance.

Speaking for myself, I do have my shafts turned (or more accurately, CUT) from boards which I select. This selection process is not the lightest work to get involved with and takes some amount of time. Even when these boards are cut by me, there is much which is graded out, leaving the remainder to be converted into the round form. Again, once this timber is rounded, it is very often the case that much of this is not up to the quality mark for my demands and is scrapped. I sometimes sell this to other people who make a few cues, and sometimes it is binned, I've even given some to a friend who burns it on his garden barbeque.

The truth of the matter is this........

There is NO BENEFIT in a planed shaft to a well turned shaft....FACT.

There is not a person on the face of the planet who can tell me the difference in a planed or turned shaft in ANY cue in relation to the playing charcteristics of the cue.
I won't go into all the details surrounding this right now, as it's another story altogether, but suffice to say, this is how it is, no matter what ANYONE tells you all.

Going back to your post above, I must say that your views are at best misleading, and at worst, naive, which is puzzling for someone who has been making cues for as long as you have. Yes, ash can tear on planing, and yes, it can be to some degree avoided by planing from another direction, but to say that this causes a cue to be oval or have flat spots is just plain wrong. When I first started making cues this is how I made them, and, I have made dozens and dozens of cues using exactly the same method and these have been finished perfectly round. There is NO EXCUSE for a cue having numerous flat spots purely on the basis that is was made with a plane, none at all.

As for your "cue build challenge", well, anyone can make some bold challenge to others in the clear knowledge that these people are not going to be able, or indeed willing to go to the expense and effort of travelling half way around the world to prove they can do something they know they can do. That was always a ridiculous thing to bring up here on an International forum, and to my eyes at least, made you appear foolish.

As you are aware from the cues which were sent to me by error from your Hong Kong agent, I have seen the cues which you have recently made with my own eyes, not just one, but six cues from an order of eight, and, have not made comment on them at all, as it's not been my place to do so. BUT, suffice to say that if we did have to make a cue side by side, using the methods YOU choose, I'd be very happy to do that, and know for an absolute certainty that what I would produce would be in a completely differnet league to what you would produce.

That gives me NO PLEASURE to say that, but it IS the truth.

I mainly view and post on this forum to offer my views or opinions on matters which I feel I have some knowledge, and apart from that, I tend to stay away from posting. I also try my best to post my thoughts in a way to minimise any offence it could cause to others, as speaking remotely can always be taken in the wrong context, so........
I do not want to get into arguments or disagreements on this forum, so I want to have no issue with you Keith, or anyone else here, but, I will defend my own position when it strongly appears someone attacks me or makes suggestion that I am either dishonest or misleading in my methods over how I produce my work. I work FAR FAR too hard to allow that.

Hopefully, we can move on.

[trevs1]

There was nothing inferior about the cue - I have it with me at the moment and it's a lovely genuinely handmade cue which I asked Martin to return because I want to use it for myself - what appeals to one player doesn't necessarily appeal to another. That's why so many people send their cue repairs and alterations to me, because they require attention by hand. The machine I have ordered is to produce cues in the same manner as Mike, Trevor, O'Min and others. If people want machine made cues, I'll give them to them, but as I stated, I will continue to make cues by hand, because some people prefer the feel and response you get from them. Perhaps I'll give up doing peoples cue repairs and let someone else pick that up, judging by the large number of cues from all the different makers that find there way into my workshop, someone could make a good living just putting right other peoples mistakes and concentrate on my furniture business and just rely on the large number of cue orders that I currently have, that can be turned out relatively quickly and cheaply by the new machine by a trainee

Here we are again Keith, what's this all about????????????????

You have NO IDEA what machinery I do, or do not use.

I have no machinery to make or turn shafts, none at all.

ALL of my splices are cut using hand planes. Yes, I do own two different lathes, but that's it, and they ain't anything fancy I can tell you.

You simply MUST stop making suggestions and comments which is based on assumption or guesswork, it's not on.

[keith auld]

Couldn't agree more - all personal taste - but if you're going to make by using machines don't con people by saying they're 'handmade'. The machine made cues are infinitely more perfect than anything made by hand, but in many cases what you gain with aesthetics you lose with playability, that's why many of the old pros used to bring their cues for me to run a new taper on their favourite cues, because they always felt that the response from a genuinely hand made cue preferable. Why, I don't know, but I do know that the older machine made 'hand spliced' cues used to be convex in the centre of the shaft and when planed out to a straight taper they became more responsive. Peradons have made their cues by machines for over 100 years, but I always considered there cues superior to the other makers around as they actually produced good straight tapers on their machines.
Yes - I will be making the future cues - with all their respective colours, using the new machine which will be described as 'Hand spliced and hand finished' cues. This machine will enable me to not only make perfectly round cues but also give me the capability of being able to supply perfect ash and maple turned poles at both 48" and 60" - it also has a dial capacity that will allow for the American Pool cue taper (flared shaft) and given the ability to engrave (something not alien to me - read 'about us' - www.cuemaker.co.uk - you'll see some of the people I've made commissioned items for in the past), it gives scope for a large varied range. It appears that the way forward is indeed the mechanisation, perhaps those coming to the cue workshop will be able to learn the cue repair business from me and have a nice little cottage industry and if they ever get stuck, they can always phone me for help, in fact the more I think about it the more I want to get someone trained and give him/her all my cue repair business and wash my hands of that side

[keith auld]

That's 'Claptrap' Trevor and you know it , (see my later reply)- hope you've looked at the making cues smoother thread as well, mind you you haven't replied to that one - good to see that you have a least admitted to getting your cue shafts turned for you - seems distictly like obtaining blanks like Hunt & O'Byrne and I used to do with machine spliced cues and then putting our names on them after finishing back in the 1980s

[Burwat Champ]

Oh my, what is it lately with this forum there seems to be an increase in posts making comments which are clearly designed to dent the reputation of others who are just trying to make a living and pay the mortgage.

This then leads to individuals having to use their time writing a post to defend themselves when that time could have been utilised to finish off my cue. (Could'nt resist that one Trevor )

I personaly couldnt give monkeys fart if Trevor make his cues with a giant pencil sharpener as long as he continues to produce the quality of cues that he does on a consistent basis.

Keep up the good work Trev

[trevs1]

Good lord Keith, there is just no end to your self promotion and disrgard for the reputation of others is there?

Let's get this clear now Keith.....

To say that I'm conning people by utilising the benefits of some machinery really does allow people to see you in your true light perhaps. You do not use a bandsaw or table saw to cut your boards into a square taper then Keith??? You don't use a powered saw of any kind to cut your ebony for your splices then Keith???

What the hell are you talking about here???......it appears it's only about the method of rounding a shaft. Is that what you call a "hand made cue"

I DO NOT advertise, at all, ANYWHERE, neither do I promote myself here, or anywhere else for that matter.

THIS IS A PUBLIC FORUM AND IT COULD BE ARGUED THAT IT IS NOT THE PLACE TO ADVERTISE YOURSELF IN THREADS POSTED BY PEOPLE LOOKING FOR ADVICE...

Still, you do what you want to do.

All this nonsense about who you've done work for in the past or who is interested in your work now, it means nothing Keith. I've done work for many pro's, and they like anyone else, are just people. In fact, I'd go so far to say that in all the years I've been making cues, that the most discerning of people I've done work for are not professional snooker players at all, but just your average club players who REALLY appreciate quality.

Do you have to be Lewis Hamilton to appreciate the build and beauty of a Ferrari???

I think not.

People can be fastideous no matter who they are.

It's clear to me you have some kind of problem with me here, so I'll leave this thread alone now, as to continue would only serve to create an impresson of myself I would rather not have.

If anyone wishes to PM me on this issue, feel free and I'll offer my honest and uncensored views there.

I'll say no more on this one.

[keith auld]

Hi Leslie (Burwat Champ) - does that keep up the good work also apply to me do the alterations to your cue that has just arrived for work on it this morning?

[keith auld]

ditto - to anyone who wants to pm me on the same subject

[trevs1]

Hi Leslie (Burwat Champ) - does that keep up the good work also apply to me do the alterations to your cue that has just arrived for work on it this morning?

His Name is Tony.