Particular type of shot

[brendan147]

You're not right here, sorry...

I know what you mean: by cheating the pocket and using side you want to bring the cue ball closer to the pink, coming off one cushion. But that shot is NOT the advanced/experienced/pro way.

It is one level further, if you know how to do it, because you CAN do it. but then, the next level (2 up) will be to NOT play it and leave the cue ball where Terry suggested. Why?

If you want to get better (and from your posts, I consider you are willing to learn) then you should play the game as safely as possible. The great skill is not to play an so called 'advanced stroke' just because you know it can be done, but to minimize risks and use the advanced strokes only when they're absolutely called for.

a pro would NOT play the shot with side, unless he wants to show off / play exhibition shots in a frame he's already won. Consider the risk:

- easy blue, dead straight. advantage: moronically easy pot, just roll it in. disadvantage: the pink is 20 cm further away. If you are good, these 20cm are no problem

- difficult blue with side. advantage: cue ball will end up 20 cm closer to pink (20cm you don't need, as you're good). IF, and only IF you get it perfect.
disadvantage: miss the blue due to excessive side. ruin the position, because the margin on error becomes smaller closer to pink. overhit it -> rest needed. underhit it: to close to cushion. judge side wrong: to close to pink, or miss the blue.


the advanced level you're always talking about starts with EASY shots. watch the youtube stuff - the better the player, the easier his shots look. the skill is not to NEED to play advanced strokes.

Wow...it seems everytime I am posting about snooker techniques, you are always trying to say "I am right, and you are wrong". Whatever...I don't want to argue with you...you have your own opinion...just leave it that way.

(They are four types of normal human being behaviour in this world:
1) CHOLERIC;
2) Sanguine;
3) Melancholy: &
4) Phlegmatic
You are strong CHOLERIC combined with some Melancholy)

Just to inform you here, many times already, I used to practice potting this dead straight blue with many sides (bottom right/left and top righ/left) into the centre pocket, and then to clear the pink and the black because I want to work on my chek/running side angles. So, nothing wrong if I want to use side IMHO (even though you might think I want to show off or whatever you want to blame...so be it).

By the way, I love the advance shots and I would use it in my game, especially if I have a chance such in this situation (and depends on what is the next object ball I need/wish to pot). In this case however, the simple roll-off to pot the blue is of course the first and the best answer for this scenario. AGAIN, I JUST LOVE ADVANCE SHOTS. THAT'S IT. I am who I am and you just have to deal with it....

Hey, I got gift for you and everyone who visiting this thread:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCKjl...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsUpn...eature=related

Enjoy the ADVANCE SHOTS................

p/s-Willie Thorne is not "showing off" in this video though...

[cantpotforshíte]

Terry...

It's a dead straight blue the right (green side) centre pocket of the table. The only shot I can think to get the cue ball go back the position as you suggest is by doing the bottom-left-screw ball (7.30pm on the cue ball). Am I right?

Unless you pot the blue into one side of the pocket, or swerve the cueball into the blue, bottom left hand screw will only pull the cueball straight back.
As for judging Krypton to be a mix of 'choleric and melancholy' or whatever it was, it seems that you're judging people by your own morals. He was being polite, and you are not.
And he's dead right about the shot choice on the blue..
Nothing wrong with enjoying advanced shots all the time as long as you are happy with a highest ever break of 29.

[brendan147]

Unless you pot the blue into one side of the pocket, or swerve the cueball into the blue, bottom left hand screw will only pull the cueball straight back.
As for judging Krypton to be a mix of 'choleric and melancholy' or whatever it was, it seems that you're judging people by your own morals. He was being polite, and you are not.
And he's dead right about the shot choice on the blue..
Nothing wrong with enjoying advanced shots all the time as long as you are happy with a highest ever break of 29.

What is "polite" whenever someone use word something like "moronically" in explaining something? I think that is rude enough for some person.

And you...as judging people like me being rude by what I have been studied about human behaviours, have yourself unpolitely accused me. Do you even know what they means? I don't think so. They are good meanings instead. Choleric = firm/strict with his/her opinions. Melancholy = details with his/her explaination. So, you are not being POLITE to me right now.

Don't simply jump into your conclusions. I am not even saying that Krypton was wrong, all I said was "I LOVE THE ADVANCE SHOTS". Read my previous post, words by words...slowly....

And how could you say if I am happy with a highest ever break of 29 or so? Did you ever played this game with me, face to face, in real life? Once again, you are being RUDE by underestimating someone that you will never meet.

Think before you "comment"...."CUEING DOG" (as in your avatar)?

No offense...

[cantpotforshíte]

What is "polite" whenever someone use word something like "moronically" in explaining something? I think that is rude enough for some person.

And you...as judging people like me being rude by what I have been studied about human behaviours, have yourself unpolitely accused me. Do you even know what they means? I don't think so. They are good meanings instead. Choleric = firm/strict with his/her opinions. Melancholy = details with his/her explaination. So, you are not being POLITE to me right now.

Don't simply jump into your conclusions. I am not even saying that Krypton was wrong, all I said was "I LOVE THE ADVANCE SHOTS". Read my previous post, words by words...slowly....

And how could you say if I am happy with a highest ever break of 29 or so? Did you ever played this game with me, face to face, in real life? Once again, you are being RUDE by underestimating someone that you will never meet.

Think before you "comment"...."CUEING DOG" (as in your avatar)?

No offense...

Oh dear

[RGCirencester]

What is "polite" whenever someone use word something like "moronically" in explaining something? I think that is rude enough for some person.

You know there wasn't a single part of kryptons post that was impolite... He simply said the shot you would be left with would be moronically easy... Which is true as you would never expect a pro or a good player to miss such a shot. If however you had said you missed this shot and he had replied with something like "so you missed a moronically easy pot", then that would be specifically aimed at you and would be rude... However it was not.

And furthermore you are insitent on continually telling people to read posts "... slowly..."
This comes across as rude as it is implying that the person reading does not have the intelligence to understand your post.

The answer Krypton gave was 100% correct and backed up by Terry. You should not try and cheat pockets, it is not advanced it is simply foolish. Even if you can pot the ball 99% of the time using the "advanced" shot, then that 1% might lose you the match. The correct shot would be the simple shot as it yields 100% pot success basically.

Watch some videos on youtube, you will notice that the better players look as if they are playing effortlessly. Every shot is a simple one purely because they are good enough to know not to play any "advanced shots" when they are not required.

You can watch thousands of youtube videos of pros and I'm pretty sure the shot you will see them play 100% of the time (assuming the frame is not already won) would be a simple screw back or run through on the blue.

And also you seem to contradict yourself. In the Mental fault thread I believe you stated that you did not want to be an average player, but wanted to excel at snooker and be as good as you can be. The approach you are taking by saying "I love advanced shots" is counter productive to this. To become a good player you must play the percentages.

This post is way too long already so I will stop now.

[brendan147]

I love advance shots

You know there wasn't a single part of kryptons post that was impolite... He simply said the shot you would be left with would be moronically easy... Which is true as you would never expect a pro or a good player to miss such a shot. If however you had said you missed this shot and he had replied with something like "so you missed a moronically easy pot", then that would be specifically aimed at you and would be rude... However it was not.

And furthermore you are insitent on continually telling people to read posts "... slowly..."
This comes across as rude as it is implying that the person reading does not have the intelligence to understand your post.

The answer Krypton gave was 100% correct and backed up by Terry. You should not try and cheat pockets, it is not advanced it is simply foolish. Even if you can pot the ball 99% of the time using the "advanced" shot, then that 1% might lose you the match. The correct shot would be the simple shot as it yields 100% pot success basically.

Watch some videos on youtube, you will notice that the better players look as if they are playing effortlessly. Every shot is a simple one purely because they are good enough to know not to play any "advanced shots" when they are not required.

You can watch thousands of youtube videos of pros and I'm pretty sure the shot you will see them play 100% of the time (assuming the frame is not already won) would be a simple screw back or run through on the blue.

And also you seem to contradict yourself. In the Mental fault thread I believe you stated that you did not want to be an average player, but wanted to excel at snooker and be as good as you can be. The approach you are taking by saying "I love advanced shots" is counter productive to this. To become a good player you must play the percentages.

This post is way too long already so I will stop now.

What is wrong if I LOVE THE ADVANCE SHOTS? I definitely know when to and when not to use advance shots. In this case, I "purposely" using sides to practice the potting angles using sides and the determine the check/running side. That's it.

Of course it was a simple blue roll-off potting. I would do that if I am in a tournament. But when in practice, sometime I like to put some "flavour" in my shot. Just to have some fun with my mate.

As I said, you and Krypton just didn't read my post SLOWLY. All you said is a simple potting and "old school" advises, which I already read again and again in Steve Davis book.

You guys are not fun at all. I am better off this thread and watch Willy Thorne's youtube break building using loads of sides. Before that, I will leave you with some words about SIDE from Steve Davis' Succesfull Snooker, which I read everyday:

"If you ever want to become an above average player to the extent that you reach 50-break milestone-you must be able to play shots with side. Having said that, side can be a dangerous weapon in the wrong hands. I myself would only use sides when I have to....Good players play with side so many time that they don't have to stop think about it. They will automatically make the necessary adjustments to the angle of the pot. You will have to learn to do the same"

[RGCirencester]

"If you ever want to become an above average player to the extent that you reach 50-break milestone-you must be able to play shots with side. Having said that, side can be a dangerous weapon in the wrong hands. I myself would only use sides when I have to....Good players play with side so many time that they don't have to stop think about it. They will automatically make the necessary adjustments to the angle of the pot. You will have to learn to do the same"

You've just shot yourself in the foot there... Your original post was specifically about having the pink on its spot and a straight blue. There is NO situation where you would use side given this situation. I read your post very carefully, and the advice given to you was sound, so stop jumping down everyones throats for no reason.


Here is your original post and as you insist on telling everyone else this

Read your own question carefully!!!

RocketRoy,

Thanks for starting such a good thread like this. Here is my question:-

I have a dead straight potting line of blue to the right centre pocket of the table. Both pink and black still on their spots, and I need to clear these 3 remaining colours to win the frame.

What type of shot I should use to get the best position for pink? Hope you and the others can give some good answers here.

Thanks.

[Forman]

You've just shot yourself in the foot there... Your original post was specifically about having the pink on its spot and a straight blue. There is NO situation where you would use side given this situation. I read your post very carefully, and the advice given to you was sound, so stop jumping down everyones throats for no reason.


Here is your original post and as you insist on telling everyone else this

Read your own question carefully!!!

I'm afraid RGC is right brendan, there really is no way you can get out of the massive hole you just dug yourself into

[Krypton]

Your original post:

I have a dead straight potting line of blue to the right centre pocket of the table. Both pink and black still on their spots, and I need to clear these 3 remaining colours to win the frame.

What type of shot I should use to get the best position for pink? Hope you and the others can give some good answers here.

The question was 'need to clear them, what's the best shot', and not 'want to show off/practice difficult advanced shots'. The correct answer Terry, many others and I gave was 'pot it as simply as you can'.
What's the point in asking if you don't want to accept replies if they don't come out the way you want? Did you expect people to tell you 'Ah easy, if you absolutely need the 3, then why not show your advanced shooting skills and hammer it in with extreme side, trying to get dead straight position on the pink for a pot into the middle...'?

I was talking about the advance shot. Come on, I already get bored with the plain stun ball thing. Let's move our game to the next level. Got that?

Being bored with the 'plain ball thing' is the first step to not improve and stay on the casual ball rumbling club player level. Use the advanced, and raise your one step (rumbling more excitedly about side), while all the rest is TWO steps above by getting past the feeling of having to use a special shot with every second pot you come across.
Being happy with the PERFECT stun ball instead of pushing the ball to the limit where it's not needed - THAT separates the casual ball rumbler from the sportsman...

...which I already read again and again in Steve Davis book...

"...you must be able to play shots with side..."

Terry told you times have changed. You needed side to move the cue ball on the old tables, you don't need it today, that much.
The skill is not only to read what Steve wrote 10^8 years ago, but to see it in the modern game's context. In the old days, you 'must be able to play shots with side' because you could not get the cue ball anywhere without, unless blessed with Jimmy's cue power. In the new days, you 'must be able to play shots with side' because every 50 shots, a situation cannot be handled without the use of side. Because all the other pro's can play it, you must be capable of it as well if you want to catch up...

[RocketRoy1983]

To answer your question I would simply roll the blue in too but for fun try potting it with a lot of right hand top side. Youll need to compensate and its a difficult and argubly silly shot but its fun and you can learn a lot from it. Plus if you play it right youll end up nicely on the pink.

[Krypton]

And a separate post about the old text book passage, we might use/need this later when new players ask about books. I consider reading helpful (lol), but only if you know who wrote it when, and why, under what circumstances. Or if you have a near coach who can explain it in further detail.

Let's read Steve Davis about 'SIDE'.

The modern player is right by reading (in bold):

"If you ever want to become an above average player to the extent that you reach 50-break milestone (oh, I'm not there yet. Lots of plain ball cueing training needed, still) - you must be able to play shots with side (ah, I broke down with 50 ten times. 8 times because of bad cueing (back plain ball training), and twice because of the side shot called for. I got to practice that shot to get ABOVE 50 also in situations, when I cannot continue playing plain ball) . Having said that, side can be a dangerous weapon in the wrong hands (oh yes! be careful) . I myself would only use sides when I have to (and avoid it whenever I can) … Good players play with side so many time that they don't have to think about it (because they put so much practice in it, they can play the one out of fifty shot which needs side. They don't have to think whether to use side or not, as they naturally spot the one shot that cannot be accomplished without side. And they know the smallest amount of side they absolutely need to just get it. NOT the largest amount that can possibly be put on the ball) . They will automatically make the necessary adjustments to the angle of the pot. You will have to learn to do the same (to be better or at least of equal strength when playing other regular 50-breakers, or in the long time, they'll leave you behind) "

(still, 2 properly played plain ball only breaks of 40, interrupted by one good safety, will win me EVERY frame)

--------------

The danger for new players is to read (in bold):

"If you ever want to become an above average player to the extent that you reach 50-break milestone - you must be able to play shots with side (yeah cool, the chapter I waited for, I always wanted to master side like the pros) . Having said that, side can be a dangerous weapon in the wrong hands (yeah, but I'm advancing, I like the cool shots. And I'm good enough. I mastered the 30 line-up break, consistently. Which means 1 time out of 10, I have a real chance of getting close to 30. At least I got 30 once... - but I'm sure I could pot one more black if I can unpack the super-duper side-screwback off that last red. And sure the 29 would look better, when side was applied on many shots within the break) . I myself would only use sides when I have to (I'll easily spot many occasions when I could play with side. Searching for the shot with side, I will overlook many easier pots – MANY HAVE GONE THROUGHT EXATLY THIS PROCESS!!! SERIOUS WARNING!!!) . Good players play with side so many time that they don't have to think about it (very cool. And I’m on the way to do the same now) . They will automatically make the necessary adjustments to the angle of the pot (soon I'll be able to do the same) . You will have to learn to do the same. (To play with side every second shot and have full cool control of the ball. (The part about 'to get over the 50 regularly when in awkward situations' has been forgotten until here.)) "

[Terry Davidson]

krypton:

As Steve says there, 'side is dangerous'. Professionals only use siding when they need a different throw on the cueball off a cushion.

In the line-up about the only time you would need to use side is if you get too dead-in on the black and have to come back to the cushion and get the cueball up for a red nearer the pink.

Siding ONLY comes into play where there is a cushion involved in the shot and plays no part (except to make the shot more difficult) when there is no cushion involved in the position.

Professionals would rather use stun and screw on middle-ball (vertical line) to achieve the same effects as possible as with siding you have to judge the amount of aim-off and for the amateur that will involve different cloths, cushions and even maybe lighter balls.

Terry

[Terry Davidson]

brendan:

If the blue is on spot (in your straight-in scenario) even cheating the pocket and using deep screw and side will not get you very far because unless you have absolute bucket-sized middle bags, even with cheating on the pocket the cueball will still come back and hit the jaw of the middle pocket under your chest and then come off the horn and could go anywhere!

This is a very low percentage shot which no pro would play and krypton (again) is exactly correct in his analysis. After all, the sign of a good player is he always plays the highest percentage shots (even if they happen to be a BORING roll in with a little top stuff as in this case).

If you want to show off then become a trick-shot artist rather than a good snooker player

Terry

[Krypton]

krypton:

As Steve says there, 'side is dangerous'. Professionals only use siding when they need a different throw on the cueball off a cushion.

In the line-up about the only time you would need to use side is if you get too dead-in on the black and have to come back to the cushion and get the cueball up for a red nearer the pink.

Siding ONLY comes into play where there is a cushion involved in the shot and plays no part (except to make the shot more difficult) when there is no cushion involved in the position.

Professionals would rather use stun and screw on middle-ball (vertical line) to achieve the same effects as possible as with siding you have to judge the amount of aim-off and for the amateur that will involve different cloths, cushions and even maybe lighter balls.

Terry

That's exactly what I said. If you spotted an error/misunderstanding in the second analysis of Steve's text, thats' ... hmm, probably not the only one.

[Terry Davidson]

brendan:

One more thing regarding your wanting to improve at snooker.

In my coaching I try and teach a student the best approach (to my mind) that will bring him success in the form of a one-shot frame win or else the thinking ability to play the correct shot in a difficult situation.

I am NOT here to teach you or anyone else any 'show off' shots so they can impress their mates. I'm here to attempt to teach or at least help everyone on this forum to become a better player, even if it's only a minor improvement.

And besides, if you REALLY want to show off when you have a straight blue to the centre pocket why not pot it with maximum power into the GREEN or YELLOW pocket with absolute maximum check side top to check the cueball off 2 cushions and end up right behind the pink and about a foot behind it.

If you want to impress your mates try that one and if you want to scare your match opponent then try it when the black is your game ball. You'll scare the poop out them

Terry