Eye Dominance, Sighting and the Cue

[nrage]

Terry your post on this thread on the 24th of july(2ND PAGE ON HERE), states "the idea of a preferred or dominant eye is complete and utter nonsense" totally contradicts what you are telling me in the above quotes, it doesnt make any sense to me.

You need to read between the lines a bit Manu. For example, what "theory" was Terry referring to in the initial post. If you re-read it with the idea that the "theory" is "that you should line the cue up under the dominant eye" then it all makes perfect sense.

[Manu147]

You need to read between the lines a bit Manu. For example, what "theory" was Terry referring to in the initial post. If you re-read it with the idea that the "theory" is "that you should line the cue up under the dominant eye" then it all makes perfect sense.

Nrage, terry uses roberston as his example, implying that HE believes roberston turns his head because of his setup and nothing to do what may be his dominant eye, yet terry confirms that until eye surgery was needed he himself sighted out of his right dominant eye (his own words), this is no reading between the lines, just contradiction.

[nrage]

Nrage, terry uses roberston as his example, implying that HE believes roberston turns his head because of his setup and nothing to do what may be his dominant eye, yet terry confirms that until eye surgery was needed he himself sighted out of his right dominant eye (his own words), this is no reading between the lines, just contradiction.

"Unless a person is virtually blind in one eye"..

[Manu147]

"Unless a person is virtually blind in one eye"..

Which Before surgery terry was NOT!

[Izzyfcuk]

The problem with most here after reading "advice" is that they literally take it word for word.........

Sometimes a little common sense would do though....just saying............

[Terry Davidson]

manu:

I mis-stated my original 'nonsense' quote. I tried to correct that mistake but here is what I meant to say originally.

'The idea that the snooker set-up should include having the cue on one side of the chin or the other or the head turned so the cue is aligned either right under or at least more under the preferred eye is nonsense unless the player is virtually blind in one eye, like Joe Davis'. If a player feels this leads to better confirmation of his cue aiming line then for that player it is the correct thing to do, however I don't believe it's necessary as it unbalances true binocular vision as it reduces the space between the eyes (in relation to the cue line) if the head is turned or else gives a slightly sideways binocular vision if the cue is to one side of the centre of the eyes (as for Jamie Jones).

Does that clarify it for you? Of course I believe EVERY person will have what I call a preferred eye which the brain will use for the primary image it sees. I used to use my right eye and then after eye surgery I had to switch to my left eye since I can only ever see a very blurry image out of my right eye and my brain (of course) prefers the left eye which (purposely with contact) is around 20/15.

When I look at photos of myself from the 80's and before the surgery I have my elbow actually hanging into my back slightly at the address position whereas nowadays my elbow hangs slightly outside the line of the cue. I believe this is me adapting my set-up to compensate for the change in preferred eye and also that I now turn my head slightly to the right to make my upper spine more comfortable. I'm not able to have the head square to the shot and be comfortable with the head twisted over to the left and turned upwards. So you could say I'm not getting the best binocular vision available to me.

I say it's not VITAL to have the cue running under the preferred eye but what I don't say (except in the mistake you pointed out) is that the idea of having a preferred eye is nonsense. In the same post I believe I did mention I use the image from my left eye for sighting and aiming when standing behind the shot and also when I get down into the shot to confirm my aim during the preliminary feathering and front pause. If I shut my left eye and just use my right eye, besides being pretty blurry, I cannot detect the line of aim at all.

I think virtually every professional player has the head turned slightly or else like Jamie Jones, the cue running on one side of the chin. The question is, do the pros and good amateurs do this to favour the preferred eye or is it done for other reasons, like having a set-up which allows them to deliver the cue consistently straighter? I doubt if a lot of the pros have every questioned the variances in their set-up and just use the set-up that is natural to them and what they have been doing since they were youngsters.

As a good amateur yourself have you adjusted your set-up so you can get the cue underneath your preferred eye and do you believe you are a more consistent player because of this?

Terry

[Terry Davidson]

I went back and edited my first post (page 2) to correct the mistake manu147 picked out. I ain't perfect I guess (although I always thought I was)

Terry

[Manu147]

manu:

I mis-stated my original 'nonsense' quote. I tried to correct that mistake but here is what I meant to say originally.

'The idea that the snooker set-up should include having the cue on one side of the chin or the other or the head turned so the cue is aligned either right under or at least more under the preferred eye is nonsense unless the player is virtually blind in one eye, like Joe Davis'. If a player feels this leads to better confirmation of his cue aiming line then for that player it is the correct thing to do, however I don't believe it's necessary as it unbalances true binocular vision as it reduces the space between the eyes (in relation to the cue line) if the head is turned or else gives a slightly sideways binocular vision if the cue is to one side of the centre of the eyes (as for Jamie Jones).

Does that clarify it for you? Of course I believe EVERY person will have what I call a preferred eye which the brain will use for the primary image it sees. I used to use my right eye and then after eye surgery I had to switch to my left eye since I can only ever see a very blurry image out of my right eye and my brain (of course) prefers the left eye which (purposely with contact) is around 20/15.

When I look at photos of myself from the 80's and before the surgery I have my elbow actually hanging into my back slightly at the address position whereas nowadays my elbow hangs slightly outside the line of the cue. I believe this is me adapting my set-up to compensate for the change in preferred eye and also that I now turn my head slightly to the right to make my upper spine more comfortable. I'm not able to have the head square to the shot and be comfortable with the head twisted over to the left and turned upwards. So you could say I'm not getting the best binocular vision available to me.

I say it's not VITAL to have the cue running under the preferred eye but what I don't say (except in the mistake you pointed out) is that the idea of having a preferred eye is nonsense. In the same post I believe I did mention I use the image from my left eye for sighting and aiming when standing behind the shot and also when I get down into the shot to confirm my aim during the preliminary feathering and front pause. If I shut my left eye and just use my right eye, besides being pretty blurry, I cannot detect the line of aim at all.

I think virtually every professional player has the head turned slightly or else like Jamie Jones, the cue running on one side of the chin. The question is, do the pros and good amateurs do this to favour the preferred eye or is it done for other reasons, like having a set-up which allows them to deliver the cue consistently straighter? I doubt if a lot of the pros have every questioned the variances in their set-up and just use the set-up that is natural to them and what they have been doing since they were youngsters.

As a good amateur yourself have you adjusted your set-up so you can get the cue underneath your preferred eye and do you believe you are a more consistent player because of this?

Terry

All players i have spoke too that are using the cue more to one eye than other are seeing the shot straighter at this point, and in all those cases after i did a dominance test on them it coincided with which eye dominated sighting? so what examples or feedback have u found, im very curious?

[Terry Davidson]

On here there are players who have the cue running under the non-dominant eye. I have found students who also do this and if it's something that I feel is hampering their ability then I will try and get them either to centre chin or else turn the head to bring the preferred eye more into line with the cue, but that would only be for a student who has poor vision in one eye.

I still believe determining the correct line of aim is the easiest part of the technique for any player who has a little experience and the really difficult part is delivering the cue consistently straight. Compromising the player's binocular vision I don't see as a correct solution.

Living in Canada and in the country I don't have access to the number of good players that you have and I've never coached a professional player although I have coached some good players and as far as I can remember the preferred eye theory never came up at all and they just naturally cued wherever the cue was, be it centre chin or to one side. I also found a number of good players who have the head turned one way or another and there was no relation to the preferred eye.

However, you would be able to get a much better sample than I can but be sure to use the check to see which eye actually gives them their line of aim and compare that to which eye they believe is their dominant eye and you might find that the two do not always align up.

Terry

[Manu147]

On here there are players who have the cue running under the non-dominant eye. I have found students who also do this and if it's something that I feel is hampering their ability then I will try and get them either to centre chin or else turn the head to bring the preferred eye more into line with the cue, but that would only be for a student who has poor vision in one eye.

I still believe determining the correct line of aim is the easiest part of the technique for any player who has a little experience and the really difficult part is delivering the cue consistently straight. Compromising the player's binocular vision I don't see as a correct solution.

Living in Canada and in the country I don't have access to the number of good players that you have and I've never coached a professional player although I have coached some good players and as far as I can remember the preferred eye theory never came up at all and they just naturally cued wherever the cue was, be it centre chin or to one side. I also found a number of good players who have the head turned one way or another and there was no relation to the preferred eye.

However, you would be able to get a much better sample than I can but be sure to use the check to see which eye actually gives them their line of aim and compare that to which eye they believe is their dominant eye and you might find that the two do not always align up.

Terry

That was my point, in all cases it was the same with the exception of two players, who also are the weakest players in my club, so on that evidence i am in difference to ur ideas.

[Terry Davidson]

manu: (PP, sorry for sort of hijacking your thread).

If you found a player who did NOT have the cue running under the dominant eye and was a weaker player like the 2 you mentioned above, how would you determine if the cause of their poorer potting was due to the cue not under the dominant eye or them not delivering the cue straight? It's a very tough thing to determine.

Then, how would you go about correcting the dominant eye aiming? By inference what you are saying is these 2 players are not aiming correctly or at least not getting the best visual image of the pot and could improve their potting by moving their cue more underneath the dominant eye. In other words changing their natural set-up, which could be very dangerous.

A quote from Nic Barrow on trying to change a player's sighting...'Be careful when attempting something this comprehensive with a player. Before taking on this task ask the player in the first instance if he wants to do it and secondly does he have a match coming up within the next month, especially a professional. It takes at least a month of daily practice to switch over to a different sighting technique, and that would be for a pro.'

If I was to take on changing a player's sighting set-up and technique I would be very careful to first determine if that player is sighting incorrectly or is he not delivering the cue straight. So, how would you determine the sighting half of this?

For me, I would have the player line up on the baulkline and aim to the edge of the leather on a top pocket and then standing behind the pocket determining if his cue is exactly on line. (One of those laser sighting devices that attach to the cue would be very handy but this can also be done with a video camera and software analysis or even by sight but that wouldn't be as accurate.

Then have him close his eyes alternately and ask him which eye shows the shot to be aligned perfectly. Then repeat the same exercise using a closer pocket, like from the baulkline to the edge of the leather on the green pocket as he may use a different eye for shorter shots (although that is very rare).

This exercise will determine two things, first if he is aiming correctly and second which is his preferred eye. You could explain to him that you have determined he is not lining up on the shot correctly and he needs to change his aiming technique by placing the cue more under the determined preferred eye but also explain there might be some necessary changes to his set-up that have to be made, for instance re-aligning the head, shoulder, elbow and grip hand and even perhaps the straight leg foot so everything can be kept on line.

Now set up a long blue and with the video camera over the edge of the leather have him pot the blue, leaving his cue extended at the end of the delivery. Determine if the cue is still on line to the edge of the leather, but more importantly play back the video using frame-by-frame and see how straight the cue was on the line of aim at the instant of striking the cueball. In a lot of cases, even with some very good players I've seen where the player is NOT striking the centre of the cueball so the first thing that has to happen before any changes are made is to get the player striking the centre of the cueball.

Then you can move on to correct his sighting, but as I said it's a very complicated process and in most cases most players will be able to select the proper line of aim however a different story when the drop down into the shot as you have to really check and see if they are on the correct line of aim. If they are then their sighting really doesn't need any re-alignment and if they are not then you really have to analyse everything about their set-up BEFORE you have them start moving the cue around or moving the head around. The safest way is to have them turn the head to align their preferred eye but that can only be done if it doesn't introduce discomfort.

In both the Master Coach training with Nic and the Senior Coach training with Terry/Wayne Griffiths sighting was barely touched upon and then only using the SightRite device. Because of my damned right eye I always see 3 lines with the SightRite with one being quite a bit darker than the other two, but turning my head did not eliminate the other 2 lines.

My theory is aligning the cue under the preferred eye is not at all important to correct sighting and doing this change will mean the player may have to re-indoctrinate himself with his new image of the potting angles. I believe the brain, as long as it's given a good binocular image to work with and the player stays consistent with his aiming technique, will determine the correct sighting line as long as the player has the chin centered or nearly so on the cue. I also believe turning the head slightly is the best way to achieve this rather than moving the cue to the left or right of the chin.

It's fine that you disagree...I doubt any two coaches agree 100% on everything as I don't agree with everything Nic Barrow has taught me even though he is my coach.

Terry

[Giggity1984]

I have to say, I think Terry has taken a pasting in this thread very unfairly. IMO he is correct. There is no other sport/(or ANY other scenario) that requires you to line up your dominant eye with your target goal/line. when your drawing a line on a bit of paper you don't hover your dominant eye over the ruler consciously, your brain and body just do it. When your firing a rifle you can use either eye to scope a target. The brain deciphers the information by itself. The reason we have a dominant eye is to enable us as human beings to have a level of depth perception. The bottom line is to pick a place to have your cue (for whatever reason you believe it needs to be there) whether it's 6 inches to the left or square in the middle of your chin and concentrate on other things.

[alabadi]

[QUOTE=Particle Physics;657928]

I think that the suggestion by DandyA is a good idea, and one that i will definatelly try, ill have to wait till i get home though, i'm on holiday in Egypt, havent found a snooker hall in Cairo yet, i'm really missing playing its been a week now, Happy hols mate, hope you're having a good one! Told you this would happen. lol.

Im determined to find a place here, however, Not tommorow its my birthday and i'm spending it cruising down the Nile...upeeee lucky me...lol

[DandyA]

there is something I really don't understand about quite a few of the contributions to this thread ... I understand the brain can adapt but why not give it the best starting point ...

I found the little test I did was quite amazing to me ... having setup everything dead straight, moving my head just a millimetre or two left or right made me think it was way off straight ... there was only one position which made the shot look dead straight ...

surely that is what I should use? I'm struggling to possibly understand any argument saying that I should use any different position and let my brain adapt or indeed any argument that says it doesn't matter where you place your head over the cue - of course it does ...

I do not claim any originality for the test I suggested, it's just a simple improvement of what many coaches suggest but try it ... it will give you confidence that you are sighting as best you can ...

obviously, it doesn't help with potting angles or straight cue delivery or positional play but as Meat Loaf might have said, if he was a snooker player, "one out of four ain't bad" ...

[edit] ... happy birthday alabadi ... watch out for the crocodiles!

[alabadi]

happy birthday alabadi ... watch out for the crocodiles!

cheers mate, i will....lol