Brexit, in or out.

[Cannonball]

https://fullfact.org/ have been doing just that wherever possible, but the trouble is, a lot of information simply isn't known, is possibly uknowable and can be interpreted in a variety of different ways.

If any proof were needed of how little we can trust our own government, the Prime Minister used PMQs a month ago to accuse Sadiq Khan of supporting Islamic State by association, because he'd shared a platform with Sulaiman Ghani. This weekend, he was himself sharing a platform with Sadiq Khan and calling him "A proud muslim and a proud Briton - an example to all of what this country can do"

On the basis I do not wish to give Mr Cameron or his ilk any more autonomy than they have already, I will be voting to stay in.

With you on this brother. Just how bad could it be if Cammo had more power?! And how terrible could it get if BJ had this power?! The last thing we need is to let the evils turn the UK into a Nevada/Texas wannabee.

[Cannonball]

Isn't the B side more apt? Although it was a double A, IIRC. certainly a better tune, at any rate.

Go back in time 30 years, when we still had a little industry. Tell the unionised work force to vote on whether to accept millions of cheap workers from abroad, to make up 15% of the work force. Tell them they will take their jobs, or compress their salaries. Tell them they'll force up rents and house prices to EIGHT times the average wage. Tell them their kids will never be able to afford their own homes, and they'll have to wait 2 weeks to see a doctor.

Then ask them to vote on the proposition. There is not a chance we'd be in this position today if we had been given the chance to vote then. The ruling elite know this damn well. Their ultimate goal is to remove the right to vote entirely.

Democracy in this country has gone, ahem, straight to hell. Fight The Power, booyyyyyy!

They'd have still elected Thatcher, they'd still have bought the Sun and they would have still supported Thatcher over the miners even though history showed Scargill to be utterly right. Because at the end of the day, most of the working class (not those unfortunate who are bright or bright/educated and trapped) are mince mate. Democracy is just the least worse scenario. Why should 50% of the population (all classes) with IQs less than 100 be able to vote anyway?

Who swung the vote in electing Thatcher>Major>Blair>Cameron? Yep, they brought this on themselves. Dothcappers should be revolting not picking sides and looking to fight euros who are slaving in the same system.

But yeah, if we could have Public Enemy and The Levellers running things instead, I'm wiv ya bro.

[Hello, Mr Big Shot]

Gav has lost the plot.

The referendum is now tuning out to be about class you know the one, it's obvious that the rich will only benefit of remaining yet for some unknown reason I see a lot of working class voting to remain.

Correct. The Remainia's have shamelessly played the race card, and many potential brexitors are afraid of being branded racist. Powerful stuff, fear. People have also become subservient to the state - institutionalised, almost.

When will people realise the R word has been overplayed to the point of redundancy? It has lost all meaning.

[Hello, Mr Big Shot]

They'd have still elected Thatcher, they'd still have bought the Sun and they would have still supported Thatcher over the miners. Because at the end of the day, most of the working class (not those unfortunate who are bright or bright/educated and trapped) are mince mate. Democracy is just the least worse scenario. Why should 50% of the population with IQs less than 100 be able to vote anyway?

But yeah, if we could have Public Enemy and The Levellers running things instead, I'm wiv ya bro.

I let the first reference to the goddamn awful Levellers go but, Christ on a bike, yikes. What next, a New Model Army revival?

That is entirely the ruling elites reasoning for suppressing democracy - they don't trust the electorate to make the correct decisions. Personally, i don't trust the ruling elite to make the correct decisions.

Pick your side.

[Hello, Mr Big Shot]

With you on this brother. Just how bad could it be if Cammo had more power?! And how terrible could it get if BJ had this power?! The last thing we need is to let the evils turn the UK into a Nevada/Texas wannabee.

Lol. Chump's flip flopping already!

Democracy. We can get rid of politicians we don't like with it. Don't let your personal dislike for a here today, gone tomorrow politician blind you because he's a different coloured stripe.

This matters - forever.

[Cannonball]

I told you before, if you don't slow down, you're gonna crash.

[Hello, Mr Big Shot]

I told you before, if you don't slow down, you're gonna crash.

I don't care. Still reckon I'll out last you.

[gavpowell]

Which windfall are you referring to and to whom did he give it? And the very last thing we need is the country being run by proponents of the dismal science, who rarely seem to spot anything.

I am referring to last year's Autumn statement, when he suddenly discovered tax receipts were higher than expected and the government had spent slightly less on the debt than ancitipated, so hey! Let's increase the pension a bit! Let's help people buying a home afford the outrageous prices we've forced on them, without reducing the price of houses! Let's scrap those tax credit cuts that we've spent months saying were unavoidable! Hail the long-term economic plan that's working so well!

A few months later, he was saying "Well, the global climate...difficult times...lower than expected growth..unstable climate...savings required"

[gavpowell]

You dislike Cameron so you want to give autonomy to bureaucrats we cannot control?

We can control a lot of them - we elect MEPS just as we elect MPs. Well, not in my case because my MP and my MEP are Tory and UKIP respectively, and I find several of their policies abhorrent.

Basically, David Cameron has proven himself to be a two-faced opportunistic bully who has no qualms about anything he says so long as it's expedient in the short-term(see also: Boris Johnson).

The EU, while bureaucratic, has to get unanimous agreement on all its major policies, and has prevented some of the nastier plans of this government. Cameron wants to know why Turkey hasn't been admitted to the EU by now, despite the fact it's still done nothing to resolve the situation with Cyprus, is notorious for human rights abuses and is in danger of becoming a one-party state.

The EU wants to impose tariffs on Chinese steel, the British government campaigns vigorously against this, then blames Europe for making it harder to bail out the steel industry.

The EU wants to cap banker bonuses, the British government is furious at the very suggestion.

The British government meanwhile is extremely positive about cuts to social care, cuts to social housing, cuts to corporation tax, very cosy agreements for offshoring profits of major corporations, very keen on diminishing the power of trade unions and other workers rights, and of course scrapping the Human Rights Act.

God knows the EU has plenty of idiotic things going on, but I'd really rather work on improving the state of democratic in this country before we give increased power to any of the current lot in Westminster, regardless of the party.

Find me a government that's actually likely to look out for its people's interests first, then get me a representative electorial system, then we'll talk about going it alone.

Phew, I'm knackered now, and I didn't even get into corporate lobbying, HS2 or Hinkley Point!

[Leo]

We can control a lot of them - we elect MEPS just as we elect MPs. Well, not in my case because my MP and my MEP are Tory and UKIP respectively, and I find several of their policies abhorrent.

Basically, David Cameron has proven himself to be a two-faced opportunistic bully who has no qualms about anything he says so long as it's expedient in the short-term(see also: Boris Johnson).

The EU, while bureaucratic, has to get unanimous agreement on all its major policies, and has prevented some of the nastier plans of this government. Cameron wants to know why Turkey hasn't been admitted to the EU by now, despite the fact it's still done nothing to resolve the situation with Cyprus, is notorious for human rights abuses and is in danger of becoming a one-party state.

The EU wants to impose tariffs on Chinese steel, the British government campaigns vigorously against this, then blames Europe for making it harder to bail out the steel industry.

The EU wants to cap banker bonuses, the British government is furious at the very suggestion.

The British government meanwhile is extremely positive about cuts to social care, cuts to social housing, cuts to corporation tax, very cosy agreements for offshoring profits of major corporations, very keen on diminishing the power of trade unions and other workers rights, and of course scrapping the Human Rights Act.

God knows the EU has plenty of idiotic things going on, but I'd really rather work on improving the state of democratic in this country before we give increased power to any of the current lot in Westminster, regardless of the party.

Find me a government that's actually likely to look out for its people's interests first, then get me a representative electorial system, then we'll talk about going it alone.

Phew, I'm knackered now, and I didn't even get into corporate lobbying, HS2 or Hinkley Point!

Gav it wouldn't matter whether Cameron wants Turkey to join the EU or not he'll be gone if the vote is to leave, as for the EU want to impose tariffs of Chinese steal come on you know that will only push prices up which mean it will be hit even harder so forget about that.

many ass holes like terrorists or those who've committed crimes in other EU states have started using the Human Rights Act and ECHR as a way of appealing against the decisions of British courts and evading justice, and it's quite embarrassing to think that those on the remain won't trust the British justice system.

As for social care I don't think the EU give a monkeys, that's why they've made the people in Greece live in third world conditions with 3million Greeks no longer have access to healthcare don't get me started on that.

We will be able to go it alone and trade with the rest of the world, and get shot of the free movement so we won't discriminate against Indian doctors, Pakistan doctors, Australians, Americans, Canadians etc etc.

Remember most people on the remain campaign particularly the leaders once said that the UK would fall into the abyss if we didn't join the EURO and of course the rest is history.

The remain is for the rich not the working class and you'd be absoultely daft to think otherwise

[itsnoteasy]

Two good posts from Gav and Leo and they show how hard it is to make a decision, I feel like we get screwed what ever way we turn. I heard someone say on the telly say the question they ask remain voters is, if you weren't in the EU today would you vote to join it? They said a lot said no, so they asked well why are you voting to stay in it? It's a bit simlistic but not a bad question to ask yourself.

[Leo]

Two good posts from Gav and Leo and they show how hard it is to make a decision, I feel like we get screwed what ever way we turn. I heard someone say on the telly say the question they ask remain voters is, if you weren't in the EU today would you vote to join it? They said a lot said no, so they asked well why are you voting to stay in it? It's a bit simlistic but not a bad question to ask yourself.

Don't forget the superstate. http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/674...campaign-fails

[gavpowell]

Gav it wouldn't matter whether Cameron wants Turkey to join the EU or not he'll be gone if the vote is to leave, as for the EU want to impose tariffs of Chinese steal come on you know that will only push prices up which mean it will be hit even harder so forget about that.

The prices need to be pushed up in the case of Chinese steel - then everyone pays the market rate and nobody is being forced out of business by countries with no labour laws. Again, a government should be looking out for its own country, though not to the point of insularity.

many ass holes like terrorists or those who've committed crimes in other EU states have started using the Human Rights Act and ECHR as a way of appealing against the decisions of British courts and evading justice, and it's quite embarrassing to think that those on the remain won't trust the British justice system.

Many of the anti-terror laws in this country are decidedly dubious and poorly written - it's what happens when you bounce things through parliament to capitalise on panic. We're supposed to be a shining beacon of human rights, abhor torture etc. yet we have a home secretary who screws up extraditions and then lies about it and blames the human rights act. British justice has also brought us libel tourism, superinjunctions and the Hutton Report. But again, a lot of the fault lies with the lawmakers - judges are supposed to interpret the law written by parliament.

As for social care I don't think the EU give a monkeys, that's why they've made the people in Greece live in third world conditions with 3million Greeks no longer have access to healthcare don't get me started on that.

The Greek situation is appalling, not least because how the hell were they allowed to join the EU in the first place? OK the government falsified its accounts but surely someone should have realised that? But then what's the solution? Presumably they can't just write off all the debt, and there must be a limit to how much everyone can bail them out?

We will be able to go it alone and trade with the rest of the world, and get shot of the free movement so we won't discriminate against Indian doctors, Pakistan doctors, Australians, Americans, Canadians etc etc.

We'll be able to, but will we? Big employers will like cheap labour still, and the government will like cheap nurses or foreign students. We've done nothing to reduce non-EU immigration, so why do you think we'd close the door if we left the EU?

Remember most people on the remain campaign particularly the leaders once said that the UK would fall into the abyss if we didn't join the EURO and of course the rest is history.

Did they? Cameron has never supported the Euro, nor has Osborne, nor Corbyn. I can find no evidence Alan Johnson ever supported the Euro either. That's all the leading figures from Remain, no?

The remain is for the rich not the working class and you'd be absoultely daft to think otherwise

In what way does it specifically benefit the rich and disadvantage the working class? Cheap labour? Only you were against steel tariffs because they'd drive prices up, but so would wage increases.

[gavpowell]

Don't forget the superstate. http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/674...campaign-fails

There is nothing to force us into any sort of federal superstate - we've already got loads of opt-outs on things like justice, the Euro etc. Any major changes would have to be agreed upon, and worst comes to worst, we can always leave then. Staying in now doesn't stop us coming out in the future, but if we left now and didn't like it on the outside, would we be able to get back in? Nobody seems to know.

[gavpowell]

Two good posts from Gav and Leo and they show how hard it is to make a decision, I feel like we get screwed what ever way we turn. I heard someone say on the telly say the question they ask remain voters is, if you weren't in the EU today would you vote to join it? They said a lot said no, so they asked well why are you voting to stay in it? It's a bit simlistic but not a bad question to ask yourself.

If we'd got to this point on our own, maybe not. But before we went in, the world was completely different - I was born in the 80s and looking back at the 70s looks like the dark ages, but equally, we're now in a much more confident and self-assured position in the world, so whatever happens we'd probably still be better off than before we went in.